For the 50th episode of the Loose Threads Podcast, a show about the rapidly changing consumer economy, I talk with Charlie Giannetti, who I ran a menswear line with for two years, which led to the creation of Loose Threads, the podcast and now the entire ecosystem we’re building. Charlie and I talked about our brand’s beginnings, all of the lessons we learned, how the original incarnation of Loose Threads started, and what he’s working now as our paths have diverged a bit but remain intertwined.

It was great rehashing the last few years of our respective journeys with Charlie. Running Gioventu was the hardest thing I had done, until Loose Threads assumed that position, but both have also been the most rewarding. Thanks to everyone for listening to the Podcast for the last 50 episodes, and here’s to another 50.   

Read the full transcript below. 

Richie: [00:00:07] Welcome to the 50th episode of the Loose Threads Podcast, a show about the rapidly changing consumer economy. This episode is brought to you by Loose Threads Membership, which gives you access to forward-thinking research, events, and our analysts, so you can capitalize on the new consumer economy. Learn more at We also have a newsletter called Ripcord that highlights one important element each week and helps you escape the noise. Learn more at

[00:00:34] For our 50th episode, which is a really exciting milestone for the podcast, I wanted to do something special. Joining me today is Charlie Giannetti, who I ran a menswear line with for two years, which led to the creation of Loose Threads, the podcast, and now the entire ecosystem we’re building. Charlie and I talked about our brand’s beginnings, all of the lessons we learned, the original incarnation of Loose Threads, and what he’s working on now as our paths have diverged but continued across.

Charlie: [00:00:58] We went in pursuit of this general vision. And I think, for me, and probably for you, holding that final piece in your hand is, again, that addicting part of saying, “This is what we came to create, and it’s here, and now we get to release it to the general market.”

Richie: [00:01:15] This episode is a bit longer than most but I hope you stick around because it will fill in the backstory about how Loose Threads got to where it is. Here’s my talk with Charlie Giannetti.

[00:01:28] Why don’t we start talking about your interests, and then we can go from there.

Charlie: [00:01:32] My parents are architects and interior designers. My dad is an architect and I grew up in that family just going on trips, and all the trips were always not particularly kid-friendly. They were going to Belgium, and then right off the plane we’d be looking at door knobs. And funny enough, the house that they were working on at that time ended up only coming into fruition four years later, which is the house that inspired what I do now.

I always knew that I didn’t want to be an architect or interior designer. Seeing my parents, the way that they did it was always really inspiring, and I knew that I wanted to do something in design. But pretty early on I got into clothing, even just starting off from Supreme or different stores in Los Angeles that me and my friends would go to. From there I got an internship doing graphic design work when I was sixteen, moved on from there, did some classes and then eventually went to NYU.

I wasn’t that into actually making clothes, I had never gone through the process of actually making something, I had really just designed things on my computer and then made them just in that format. Photoshop, I got really good at that, and then kind of moved on from there. So that design side was something I was interested in, and then as soon as I figured out how to actually make something, it was that final creation point that I found just so addictive.

Richie: [00:03:04] Do you remember the first thing that you made?

Charlie: [00:03:05] Yeah. My first week of NYU I designed this shirt on Photoshop. I literally hung a shirt on the wall of my dorm room. It was just a black T-shirt and I photoshopped this crazy graphic together. It was like tigers and a cathedral in the background, and it was in that era of Givenchy and the whole Rottweiler shirts and all that Kanye stuff, and I literally made it as a joke and put it on tumblr, and I had no Tumblr following it all, and the shirt got 30,000 rebogs in two days.

And so from that point I knew that I wanted to actually produce this shirt, because in its first form it had so much interest on it, and then I started getting reached out to by celebrities, stylists, just off this shirt that didn’t exist, it was just photoshopped. And so from that point I was in New York, skating around the garment district, trying to figure out how to actually produce a piece of clothing, and that was where it all started. I ended up making them, and made a Squarespace site, did a photoshoot on a disposable film camera, and we sold 100 pieces in like 3 hours, at $150 apiece for this T-shirt that no one had ever seen in real life.

Richie: [00:04:26] And so did the jerseys come next?

Charlie: [00:04:29] Yeah so the jerseys were next. I knew I wanted to follow up with something else. And for me the basketball jerseys were hitting really hard. So I started with a collaboration with one of my friends, Andre, and we came together and did another basketball jersey series, again, sublimated mesh, crazy all-over-print, those sold out within a day as well.

[00:04:54] So moving forward I knew that I had this audience for stuff, but there was still that thing in the back of my mind that was, I would never wear any of this. It was ridiculous, it was gaudy, and it was really hard for me to design multiple things in this avenue because it just didn’t inspire me.

Richie: [00:05:12] And then how did the basketball jerseys do?

Charlie: [00:05:14] The basketball jerseys did well. I mean we did our first round of them, and then from that point I ended up doing another collaboration with Ugo Mozie, who’s a celebrity stylist, and together we got them, just in one summer, running them around, they were in fourteen stores in every major city. And Justin Bieber wore those and a couple of other celebrities wear them and they sold super well, but it just really wasn’t particularly interesting as a business.

Richie: [00:05:44] And then were the hockey shirts part three?

Charlie: [00:05:47] Yeah hockey shirts were part three.

Richie: [00:05:48] The trilogy.

Charlie: [00:05:48] Yea. So those were more of a step in the direction that I was interested in. They didn’t have any prints on them. They were made at the same factory that did the basketball jerseys, but they were vertical mesh stripes with French terry on them, and just black with white mesh, and somehow that helped and it brought over the audience, it was enough connected to the previous thing that we were able to get a big engagement on them and sell through them really well. But it was also hitting a low price point and the quality of good—at this point my taste level was going up and I was learning about stitching, and I was learning about the actual manufacturing of good, and what made something actually stand the test of time, in terms of quality. And it was still just not that.

Richie: [00:06:39] And was there any goal at this point?

Charlie: [00:06:41] Not really. I mean with all this stuff it was always having fun, but also continuing on to the next thing. I knew there needed to be something else, and I knew that I still didn’t have that personal audience that would be able to continue this and expand it into a real brand. So I just kept on pushing new pieces, new things, whatever the next iteration of it would be.

Richie: [00:07:05] There must have been a few of those. I think when we met—I’ll start to tell my side of this, we were in a class together and there was a big table, and the class is overbooked. And coming in had an option which is I could either like scootch in, or I could sit back and just have a little more personal space, and I decided for the latter. And we would go through this class and for the first few weeks there was this kid, who is sitting in front of me now, on his computer designing stuff in Photoshop, not at all paying attention to what was happening in the class, which I thought was kind of interesting, but I was also somewhat intrigued.

Charlie: [00:07:34] Sorry mom.

Richie: [00:07:37] And I think I probably went up to you after class one day and was like, “Hey, what are you working on?” And you had probably zero interest in talking me at the time.

Charlie: [00:07:45] I can confirm.

Richie: [00:07:46] And I think I did that a few times and you finally agreed. I think we got a coffee.

Charlie: [00:07:50] Yeah we did get a coffee. Which is your signature move. Just get the coffee.

Richie: [00:07:54] I don’t drink coffee. And, again, I think I got you to spit a little more out about what you were doing, but you were still immensely disinterested in talking to me.

Charlie: [00:08:04] Well you know you do those introductory things in the beginning of class, and my introductory, “What are you working on?” thing, is, at that time, it was interesting to a lot of people and so a lot of people approached me. I mean who doesn’t want their own clothing line and to hang out with rappers and stuff, it was fun. But it was generally like, “I’ll do coffee with anyone, but I won’t do a follow-up meeting with most people.” So yeah we had that coffee and I was interested in what you were doing. But you were more focused on writing.

Richie: [00:08:37] Yeah I was working on version one of media stuff, which was this project called Seersucker that started a few years ago, but was also looking for a next thing to sink my teeth into also. And I got a hold of your number somehow, we started texting a bit, and then we would go to class and you were working, and I was sitting back again, and I started just texting being like, “Moved that thing to the left, or like slide it up to the right.

Charlie: [00:08:57] Yeah.

Richie: [00:08:58] I’m sure you were like, “What the fuck is he talking about?” But I think we started to talk a little more in class, I don’t even know what came next.

Charlie: [00:09:03] Yeah, I think you had mentioned that you wanted to try making a couple things. And at this point, looking back on it, it’s funny to think of you actually making stuff right now. You know, going through that process as being the person who takes the step back and actually observes the process, because going through that process, I think that’s more what you are interested in, though, you were just like, “How do clothes get made in New York City?”

Richie: [00:09:29] Yeah. So I think my idea was, “I don’t really know where this was going,” but I was just thinking, “Let me try and make something.” And that was the first pair of pants. So you introduced me to this crazy showroom, which was the first time—you know, you walk into a building on 30-something street in New York, you go past a massage parlor that you do not want to go into, up to the second floor, and there’s just this little sample room with clothes, sewers, and this dude who had no interest in me being there whatsoever.

Charlie: [00:10:03] Yeah the whole garment industry thing, I mean, even as we’ve moved on, it expanded into this complete ghost town. I mean Maker’s Row has done a really good job at opening that up, but this was before that.

Richie: [00:10:16] Yeah.

Charlie: [00:10:16] I mean there was no way to find out about anything. So the guy who you met was just a guy that I found online previously when I was searching for somebody to manufacture these shirts that I had already sold. And I just continued to use him. But he spoke no English, I mean when I met him the first time he had an assistant that would help speak English, and he spoke no English, but he could make patterns, cut samples, and sew them, all in-house, which was, as we would later find, not the case in most places.

Richie: [00:10:49] I remember you took me up there the first time, again, not interested in what I was doing, just kind of like, “Taking this kid, I can leave him here and go on and do my other stuff.” And I think that was the first time after that where I was like, “OK where do you get the fabric? Right?” And that’s when I started going nuts on Google, and searching around, and I found something that you hadn’t found before, which was, I forget the name of it, but it was basically a company in the U.S. making organic cotton. And I got some of the samples and you were like, “Oh this stuff is actually pretty good.” It was expensive and whatever at the time, but that got interesting. And then I think it took probably a month or two to get towards this pair of pants, of just nagging that guy, and following up, and following up. And it ended up with a pair of pants that I would never wear, and were just not even interesting, is a nice way to put it.

But it was also the first foray into like, “Oh this is actually interesting,” because I’d come from a filmmaking background, and previously spending time running events, and I was like, “Oh this is kind of the same thing,” which is building up supply chain logistics, running this business is just lots of baby steps that you just do over and over again together, and you can come out on the other end.

[00:11:51] I also realized at that time, designing was not for me. But hey, you were there, and I don’t even remember how the conversation or conversations went, but it was probably me being a little nudgey, being like, “Let me just help you with some stuff.” Do you remember the first?

Charlie: [00:12:06] Yeah I do remember pretty vividly that you had opened up this other side of stuff that was kind of the opposite mind, I’d always had a hard time going creative side and that business side, and the business side is sourcing fabrics, I mean it’s going through and finding all these vendors. It’s also networking, I mean it’s essentially what you do now, you need to talk to people to open up to new people. And it was all based around that. So I knew in my head that I wouldn’t be able to do it alone. I mean I was already so busy, and we were in school, so it was never going to happen. So as soon as you expressed interest in doing something else, I knew that there was something to do. It was just unclear exactly how we were going to meld together.

Richie: [00:12:52] Yeah. And I think that was also when I realized that, given the design side was not for me, that opened up the opportunity for you to run that, and I would run the stuff you don’t want to do.

Charlie: [00:13:00] But even from your early ideas, all of the best-selling pieces weren’t just me. It was that collaboration between them, and then also having two minds to problem solve and figure things out. Because once you opened up that world of being able to do actual clothes that I wanted to wear—but that opened up a whole other wormhole of flannel and matching and grading and marking and all of this stuff that I had never even thought about. But we were in it together. So it was helpful from that standpoint.

Richie: [00:13:33] You would spend time hacking together the production of these garments, which I think when that happens, it wasn’t really visible to you, it was more contract-based, you would send this design, you would work through samples, but it was almost more full-package, so to speak. Meaning it was more—they held your hand, so to speak, throughout the process, to help you get from A to Z. I think as we started talking, you spoke of aspirations of raising the quality of everything you were doing, and getting to this place where your taste had evolved to. And I think we decided, “OK, we need to take this thing you did, take some of the essence of it, but bring it to New York, start from scratch, and basically just rebuild every single facet of what you were doing.

Charlie: [00:14:10] Yeah. The interesting thing is, by doing that, we learned the things that we would continue to do on every piece, and the things we would never do again.

[00:14:21] I mean even now, dyeing fabric, as a specific example, is something that I advise almost everyone against, because you don’t pay attention to the cost, it doesn’t really pan out, it’s a lot of wasted time, it’s a lot of effort. If you can just find the material in the right color—and we went through that process of finding the dye house, biking through Brooklyn on City Bikes. Yeah, it was in pursuit of this general vision. And I think for me, and probably for you, holding that final piece in your hand is again that addicting part of saying, “This is what we came to create, and it’s here, and now we get to release it to the general market.”

Richie: [00:15:01] Yeah, as we decided, “OK we want to raise the quality,” we basically unbundled every single part of the process. So, you started designing, I started looking for fabric for vendors. How many factories did we visit in the course of those two years? Seventy five, fifty?

Charlie: [00:15:18] Yea. Train rides to New Jersey.

Richie: [00:15:20] Went to New Jersey. We’d go up to the Garment District, just walk into a building, scan the directory and just go, “We’re going up.”

Charlie: [00:15:26] And then sometimes we would have people that would price us out, and sometimes we would have people that just didn’t understand quality. I mean finding that niche spot for you, independent of price even, cause we didn’t really even understand what kind of margins we should be getting on stuff, just because we assumed that none of these people would generally want to talk to us, because we weren’t really doing that much stuff. And so when we see other pieces being manufactured there, was a huge indicator for us. I mean, the one place that did our flannels did The Row’s  coats, just really formal tailoring and women’s wear.

Richie: [00:16:04] The flannels was Steven Alan’s place.

Charlie: [00:16:05] Steven Alan’s place, yeah, they did so much stuff but little did we know, one, what Steven Alan was paying, or, two, what the price break for mass production was. So we would just say, “OK we like the quality of this, let’s give them a chance.” I mean that’s the whole thing, when you’re starting off as a small brand, we learned very early on that most people will work with you, but they’re going to not help you as much. And also their price breaks are just not transparent at all. You’ll just always be asking favors, and you won’t be able to ask for anything.

Richie: [00:16:43] Yeah. So we started running around with our heads cut off, started sourcing fabric online, taking appointments that we probably shouldn’t have been taking. Talk a bit about how we formulated the business. We decided to go direct, we decided not to go seasonal, and then we can talk about the pieces.

Charlie: [00:16:57] Yeah. Working together became really clear, as we started to have these talks that you have all the time now, about D2C, the value in wholesale as a marketing platform essentially, we were breaking all that stuff down just by seeing it happen. So we knew that as price point increased, we would lower our ability to sell it online, and then also we knew that from a high quality good, that people needed to feel it, because it was a tactile good, as soon as the interior of the good—we were using great fabrics, but the interior sewing was really the thing that I wanted to pay attention to, and the thing that was flawless. I mean, the silk binding on the inside of the flannels of all our pieces was the thing that sold it in a wholesale environment, but were really hard to add as a value proposition online.

Richie: [00:17:54] I think we really quickly saw that connoting a better than good-enough level of quality online was nearly impossible.

Charlie: [00:18:01] Right.

Richie: [00:18:02] And you could have really good photography. I think we’ve looked at other companies, like Everlane has tried to do this, where they have full zoom images and stuff. It’s really really hard to do still.

Charlie: [00:18:09] Yeah, you need to get that feeling, to say, “I’ve never seen something like this.” And then from that point you’ll say, “It must be that this piece is higher quality than the previous stuff I had seen.” But if you can’t get to that point with the customer where they say, “This must be really well done,” and I personally don’t believe that made-anywhere has anything to do with, in a customer’s mind, of quality. I mean it was all made in New York, but who knows how good that is. We saw people at the high end and low end making stuff in New York. And so we decided, one, to sell as much as we could direct-to-consumer, to really push that, to play with the advertising, still to use the social media; Tumblr, Instagram, all that stuff, the influencers, and open that and do product placement. But we also realize that we had to have a couple points of contact for the customer.

Richie: [00:19:03] And so the model we chose, which was not original at the time, was we wanted to be basically a seasonal-less, direct-to-consumer brand, with supporting wholesale. So the goal originally was to put out one piece a month, which we quickly realized was going to be really challenging, when you’re learning all these lessons for the first time. But, what, we started with the T-shirt?

Charlie: [00:19:21] Yeah, started with the T-shirt. The T-shirt did well. I mean that one was a baseball scoop bottom T-shirt out of supima cotton that we did all in those neutral tones, so one natural version, and then one stone, storm gray version. The tumbler shots did really well, all our Instagram stuff did well. So that piece moved, but we also learned that, it was going back to what I had learned originally, and I think you initially were disappointed that it didn’t sell as fast as my previous stuff had sold, but it was simply because of the fact that it was more refined menswear.

Richie: [00:20:00] Right. And we were less trendy.

Charlie: [00:20:02] Yeah.

Richie: [00:20:03] As where you had started, specifically, just hopping trends.

Charlie: [00:20:07] But we knew that you could build a better brand having an audience of higher quality goods and returning customers from that standpoint, and just grow out of those one-off pieces, that, yeah you could probably sell through them quickly, but unless somebody likes that artwork specifically, you just are not going to get that return customer, because they know that the quality is not particularly good. And so it becomes challenging to actually build a business on that.

Richie: [00:20:34] So we did that T-shirt first, launched the brand, the second product we did, it was a new version of the hockey jerseys, so we kind of rebuilt the product that had done really well for you.

Charlie: [00:20:42] Yeah, we didn’t hold anything back on that one. I mean we were literally like, it was for send-outs, which knowing now, as a manufacturer, knowing now, that is insane.

Richie: [00:20:52] Explain what that is.

Charlie: [00:20:53] The fabric came in white ready to dye, and we had to take it to the factory, or dye house, in Brooklyn, which literally meant that we had to bike with it on bags. I mean obviously, it’s a dye house, so it’s not going to be close to anyone. It’s in the middle of nowhere.

Richie: [00:21:11] Right.

Charlie: [00:21:12] And also looking back on it, after having visited a bunch of dye houses in L.A., it was a sizable dye house. I mean they were pushing out production and they were also doing things that a lot of dye houses in L.A. won’t do.

Richie: [00:21:26] All right so back to send outs.

Charlie: [00:21:28] Yeah. So the fabric arrives at your apartment in white. And then we take it to the dye house. We dye it the color that we want. So he takes it off the roll, puts it in bags and then we bring the bags back to our manufacturer. This is our first time realizing that the cutter…

Richie: [00:21:45] Right, so the cutter is the person that cuts the fabric into the pieces you need to sew it together.

Charlie: [00:21:49] Yeah. The cutter and the sewer though, aren’t in the same place, which we hadn’t really run into, because before that we were cutting T-shirts. So now we’re learning that it has to go from the cutter to the sewer, and they don’t know each other, they’ve never met. So we have to literally take it from the cutter to the sewer. But this piece has the bias on it. So basically, it’s a machine that has razor blades on it, they cut the fabric into strips, and then, if you imagine a hockey top, a vintage hockey top, you’d imagine just stripes going across it.

Richie: [00:22:23] Right. There are two big panels at the bottom of the shirt and then there’s stripes that basically sew the panels together.

Charlie: [00:22:27] Yeah. So we didn’t know this, but most manufacturers won’t cut your fabric into stripes. You have to go to a trim place. So that’s our third send-out at this point. You take it to the trim place, they give you a roll of this—essentially it looks like string.

Richie: [00:22:42] Ribbon, fabric ribbon almost.

Charlie: [00:22:43] Exactly.

Richie: [00:22:44] But this is all with the same fabric that you dyed once. This is where we started getting a lot of math, right? Because you have, let’s say, fifty yards of fabric, you have to allocate enough to make the shirts, but also enough to make the trim. And if any of those are short, you’re basically wasting stuff because you can’t complete the shirts. Additionally, if you do come up short on something, and you do need to re-dye it, the chances that the colors will match again are very low, because every lot of dye, every time you dye something, they re-concoct the potion and it’s different.

Charlie: [00:23:14] It changes based even on the weight of the fabric you put in. But then after the pieces got dyed, we knew we wanted them to look vintage, so we had sewn all these pieces at this factory, found somebody that could actually sew straight, which with all knit stuff was very difficult to do.

Richie: [00:23:29] Knits meaning very malleable, stretchy fabrics.

Charlie: [00:23:32] They’re sweaters, yeah. Just imagine trying to sew a ribbon onto a sweater and make it a straight line. It would be nearly impossible, knowing now you have to be an extremely good sewer in order to do that. I mean, along this process you also are just checking every detail. When the sweaters were done, because we knew they were hard to make, we put them all on hangers and inspected them one at a time.

[00:23:57] I mean, that whole labor of love, if you don’t love making clothes—it’s one thing just to make a piece, it’s art. You make one piece of clothing, you made art. Once you try making a hundred pieces of clothing, then you’re really talking. How people make thousands of pieces of clothing is obviously insane. But yeah, you just realize how many things can go wrong in the process, and how much it needs to be checked by someone who actually pays attention. And then we got them all done correct at the end, after many trips back and forth, and that was the clear indicator, that first indicator that this was not going to be easy. And also, lesson to say, “We’re not going to do this many steps in the process moving forward.”

Richie: [00:24:42] I don’t think we had any clue what we were getting into, in terms of the level of math precision, communication needed to coordinate effectively, what, almost half a dozen, about a dozen different parties, all aligned in the same goal, who give no shit about you, who don’t all speak the same language, they don’t all know each other, and somehow you have to come out with something that works on the end.

Charlie: [00:25:00] Yeah.

Richie: [00:25:01] It’s like the ultimate puzzle, which I think is also why I liked it, in a way, was because none of this was easy.

Charlie: [00:25:06] It was a puzzle that you knew was doable, especially once you made the sample, you knew that this could be done. You know, even looking back at the way that our first samples were sown, and the way that they turned out, and the way that they looked, it was just scaling the process that was hard, but obviously other people had done it. So you knew it was a problem with a solution. And along the route we just learned so much about not only communication in general, and people, and it was our first business, you know, but just about how to actually manage things happening, and people who would never talk to each other.

Richie: [00:25:43] All right, let’s talk about the flannel. Where’d it come from?

Charlie: [00:25:46] It started off as a concept with just replacing the buttons with a zipper. And from there we found a flannel fabric that we really liked, that was actually a quilting fabric, so it was used for quilting, made by a quilting company, and it was fluffy but heavy, and little did we know how nearly impossible this fabric was to find. But we did it with a straight bottom and a little bit longer back, and a little bit shorter in the front.

Richie: [00:26:14] So we had this thing get made the first time, and I think we went to go pick it up, and we were really intrigued that the sewer had, for the first time ever, decided to do something more than we asked for.

Charlie: [00:26:28] Yeah. We wanted to do a silk panel on the inside back of the shirt, where the label would be, just to frame it, but we brought too much silk, so we used all the silk and he cut it into tape again and took all the seams of the shirt, that are usually just woven thread.

Richie: [00:26:46] Right, which is where basically all the pieces are put together.

Charlie: [00:26:49] Exactly. And he put the silk over those pieces, and it was just beautiful. I mean it looked like Italian hand tailoring. It made it completely different than anything else we’d seen.

Richie: [00:27:01] Right, it also raised the price.

Charlie: [00:27:03] Oh yeah I mean little did we know again, that our manufacturer had taken it upon himself to try and impress us, and when we went to another place, people wouldn’t even talk to us because they were uninterested in taking the time per piece. I think somebody told us that the added cost per piece was like five or six dollars apiece, and I think not counting fabric.

Richie: [00:27:23] Right. And I think we had the mentality of, “Hey, we’re a direct-to-consumer brand, we can afford this, we have the margin for it. The other piece too, which was a major point of agony, was basically how flannel gets laid out on a shirt, and that decision.

Charlie: [00:27:37] Yeah. Basically how flannels work is…

Richie: [00:27:43] Or how they look the best.

Charlie: [00:27:44] Yeah, how they look the best, right. You’re given a repeating pattern. So let’s say the pattern repeats every two inches. Essentially what you’re doing is, you can say you have two pockets on the front of the flannel. They have to cut those two pockets at the same point of the repeating pattern, so that it fits on the flannel and blends into the pattern of the flannel. Essentially what that means is that all this fabric around that pocket that didn’t really fit, just gets thrown away.

Richie: [00:28:15] I think, one, we realized we didn’t have enough fabric, and two, that this was much more complex, and three, our factory had zero interest in helping us figure this thing out.

Charlie: [00:28:25] Yeah it was also a fabric that I had found before I even met you. And we went through the process together of saying, “This fabric has to exist wholesale, and we have to be able to find the direct supplier, because we bought it from B&J Fabrics on 40th, and they were selling it I think for $22 a yard. And obviously, at this point, having sourced fabric before, we knew that was insane.

Richie: [00:28:50] We knew it is insane but I remember that was the longest search I ever did.

Charlie: [00:28:54] That’s when you really had to put in the serious work to be like, “This is a piece I believe in, and this is a fabric that we’ve looked for. I know it doesn’t exist elsewhere from all these other fabric suppliers that I’ve looked for. And I have to find the source.”

Richie: [00:29:09] I probably spent thirty hours finding that fabric, and I think the moment of relief was when we found it, for what, $7.99 a yard? We cut the price by a third.

Charlie: [00:29:18] But found out that they didn’t have very much of it.

Richie: [00:29:21] Yeah, which might be a lesson in retrospect, which is, if the Internet doesn’t want you to find it, maybe you shouldn’t find it.

Charlie: [00:29:26] Wasn’t meant to be.

Richie: [00:29:28] So that was interesting because that was the hardest piece we made, but it was also the most successful. And so, do you remember launching that?

Charlie: [00:29:35] Yes, so we launched it and pretty quickly, I remember we did a custom piece because one of the stylists that I had done the basketball stuff with early on, he asked us to put a package together for Justin Bieber, and we made him this custom one that was just dip dyed greens. It was a green flannel, and then it had a green gradient fade from the bottom, sent it to him, and then I remember the call. I mean it sold okay when we initially launched, I think we launched it a couple of days before this happened, and we sold a couple of pieces. And then I get a call from you, and you’re like, “Check your phone.”

Richie: [00:30:13] I remember that call. I was standing outside Chelsea Piers in New York, I don’t even know how I found it. You know, actually I think what was happening is you had said that he had the thing.

Charlie: [00:30:23] Yeah the stylist texted me and he was like, “Justin is wearing it tonight.” And it was his first time back in a long time, so it actually got press everywhere. And these were the latest photos of him for like a month, which is forever and Justin Bieber time.

Richie: [00:30:39] Right. So he’d done the red carpet and that was the first time I saw it, then he went on to perform, and there were some pretty cool shots of him flying in the air.

Charlie: [00:30:46] But he had changed all his clothes except the flannel. Between the time of him walking the red carpet and going on stage, he changed out of everything except this green flannel with the dip dye on it, and we just had endless imagery from that point.

Richie: [00:31:01] From there though, I remember going home that night and realizing, “Okay, we have all these images that are all across the internet and nobody knows about us.”

Charlie: [00:31:09] Yeah, that was something you’ve even talked about before, and we’ve learned really hard after, but essentially, once a celebrity wears your thing, unless you have a press team, or know where these images are going to go, based on even the person that it’s on, you have nothing. You’re talking to your own audience and people are like “That’s a cool flannel,” and that’s it, right? So from that point it was our first realization, and really your first realization that if something was going to happen, you had to go back to your roots and just send e-mails and just reach out to press, and essentially tell them, “This is what he’s wearing.” And I don’t think you would even get a response. They would just either change it underneath the photo, or a couple of places would actually give us content posts. But I think the ones that really made it move were, I mean Daily Mail UK, under the photo.

Richie: [00:32:00] Just Jared.

Charlie: [00:32:00] Yeah, Just Jared. Like, “Flannel by…” And they don’t even do that anymore.

Richie: [00:32:04] So I ran home and texted one of my family friends who had done a little PR stuff, and I was like, “What do I do?” She was like, “Just email them.” So I think I probably sent out thirty e-mails that night of some hacked together quote-unquote press release, saying that he was wearing our flannel. And we actually got some responses back, after I bugged people enough. But we probably got a handful if not a dozen of them to actually change, basically what is known as a “shirt credit” or an “outfit credit.”

Charlie: [00:32:28] It was the photo caption on the press site.

Richie: [00:32:31] So that was exciting. And I think we sold out of most of the other ones quickly. The problem, however, was we stocked none of the ones he was wearing.

Charlie: [00:32:40] I mean that was a big lesson, and something that I just told someone the other day, when you’re talking about doing celebrity placements, the looks aren’t necessarily—are very rarely transferable. A strong celebrity placement is going to get you sales on the piece that the celebrity is wearing. But if you want to retain the audience, you then have to have a large offering, which we did not. Or you have to supply the product that the celebrity was wearing, because essentially it’s them saying, “I like this piece.”

Richie: [00:33:09] Not the brand, the piece.

Charlie: [00:33:10] Yeah, exactly. So we sold through, immediately, all the ones in that color. And then afterwards were kind of just sitting on that one color that just didn’t really—the hype didn’t transfer over to it.

Richie: [00:33:27] From there we worked on one other piece which was also—am I forgetting anything before the short sleeves, or the tank tops?

Charlie: [00:33:34] So we did an iteration on that, but it was summer at this point and so we didn’t have the ability to sell different flannels, so it was kind of a similar piece, it was a mesh of all the pieces, assuming that that piece would be the best thing to do. It was a mesh of the T-shirt, and then it had a zipper front like the flannel. But what did you say the other day, that the reason for its demise was?

Richie: [00:33:58] It was a boxy cut.

Charlie: [00:33:59] It was a boxy cut.

Richie: [00:34:00] And I don’t think people bought boxy stuff online.

Charlie: [00:34:02] Yeah. It was also just not listening to the lessons that we learned about the supply chain, and trying to minimize that, and use that to inform the design. I respect a lot now, and I try to offer up my advice on the actual design process in that form, to say, “If your supply chain can’t grow to actually encompass the piece as it scales, if you won’t be able to make a hundred of them, and there’s a certain piece of this garment that you won’t get for six weeks, your piece now takes three months to make.” So it’s something that you need to consider from the first sampling process, to the first drawing process, to say, “Is there another way to do this?” Because at every roadblock you should be questioning, “Should we be doing it this way?” I mean, even with that flannel, we should have honestly been like, “Okay this is not going to be easy to find,” and then thought forward to, “What if somebody wore this, and we could sell a thousand of these flannels?” which is not where our mindset was, what would we do?

Richie: [00:35:08] I think the other lesson we learned also was just how connected the prototyping in the production phases were. We probably learned, almost too late, the attention to detail needed to actually watch costs in the sampling process, because I think we learned that with the flannel very much. But that final piece, I think the one thing we did do well was actually taking an understanding from the sampling into the production and being really critical of, “Okay do we need to do it this way? What would you project out for costs? Can we do it a different way?” Which I think has also been the lesson that has served you more than me, because you’re still running at this.

Charlie: [00:35:37] Realizing that it’s all just time. All these people are just pricing the piece based on the amount of time it takes to sew them.

Richie: [00:35:43] Because it’s labor, this is a labor business.

Charlie: [00:35:45] Exactly, but we weren’t—at that point we didn’t know how to sew or make patterns or any of that stuff, so you didn’t realize that by adding a certain type of stitch here, all it means is it takes them twice as long to make the piece, and cost you twice as much to sew the piece, right? So it was just, all in all, a huge learning experience on every piece, from an entirely different avenue, whether it be design influenced by production, or production influenced by design. Because then you can start to go through and dissect the different parts of it and say, “This is what I need, this is not.”

It was also at this point that we started to realize that no one really cared about the quality. We had kind of—and you’ve hinted on this in the past, is, there is a point where you overshoot the quality level that a customer is expecting, and you are just undervaluing yourself beyond what people can genuinely appreciate.

Richie: [00:36:42] When it comes to quality, beyond “good enough,” there’s a point of diminishing returns, where it’s not just actually diminishing returns, you’re actually losing money investing in something that no one cares about.

Charlie: [00:36:50] Yeah, cause the problem isn’t like—yes, if you give a customer something that is beyond the quality that they expect, they’re not going to buy that piece again. So if you’re putting all your money into making that piece incredible, they are going to forget about you before you even come back with the next piece, and they might not like the next piece. And there is nothing you can do about that. They might like the piece that you make three pieces from then, but if you can’t get to there because you need a 60% sell-through in order to become profitable, you’re just never going to get to that point.

Richie: [00:37:25] I remember the other thing we also did was, we really want to make—I think we both said this, that, “We really want to make Rick Owens quality clothing at a more affordable price point.” And the reality was…

Charlie: [00:37:35] Which is stupid.

Richie: [00:37:36] We’re not Rick Owens. It shouldn’t be affordable.

Charlie: [00:37:38] No.

Richie: [00:37:39] And no one gives a shit.

Charlie: [00:37:40] I mean, going back and doing it again, obviously there’s a lot of things that we would have done differently. I think that whole value/price point thing is fantastic if you’re able to have a large variance of SKUs, and if you’re able to say, “I’m not sitting on all this inventory,” in order to get that price even to a reasonable percentage. You should be functioning much differently than that.

Richie: [00:38:06] The one thing I forgot to mention also is when the blog started.

Charlie: [00:38:09] Oh yeah. Shit.

Richie: [00:38:11] We went traveling that summer, and I think we’d started talking at that time, we weren’t yet done with the flannel but we had the beginnings of battle scars from making it, and just learning all these lessons in the process. And at the same time I think a lot of people started reaching out to us being like, “Hey man, I’m trying to start a brand,” similar to what you dealt with when I was bugging you. And the questions are really similar, which made perfect sense, and I think there was a certain kind of point where, “I can’t take another coffee and say the same thing again. But I still want to help,” because we were very very lucky to have a lot of people around us that lent a hand and gave us time.

Charlie: [00:38:43] Yeah we would have never met had I not had that first coffee with you. I mean the coffee thing is still—I had somebody the other day, there’s a girl, a friend of a friend, and she was trying to make her first dress, and she’s shocked at all the advice I’m giving her, and telling her about all these intricate parts of setting up a fashion brand, and these things to think about. And she’s like, “Why are you doing this all for me?” I was like, “Because I wish somebody would have done it for me.

Richie: [00:39:12] Karma, yo.

Charlie: [00:39:12] Yeah, maybe you’ll do it for someone else.

Richie: [00:39:14] Exactly. And so we were really lucky in that position and so I think going into that summer we were sitting in Stockholm, and I don’t remember what the original—I guess the reason why was, I was like, “Can I just start to write some of this stuff down that I can send to people as a link, because I think there are other people that would benefit from this,” and also somewhat therapeutically, could we use it to work through our own process and understand, “Are there better ways to do what we’re doing?”

[00:39:41] So we wrote that first post July 17th, 2015. I know this because I looked recently. And it was called just “Why This Exists.” And it was a four paragraph post about, we’re doing this, we’re building this company, there are a lot of lessons to learn, and I think there was some sort of value we could provide. So we started writing, and I think the first dozen or so posts were really about the really kind of core mechanics of actually writing out the playbook we wish we had when we started the company. So stuff about working with factory sample makers, mills, thinking about e-commerce, customer service, especially around cash flow, of just, “How do you manage money in one of these businesses where you’re making stuff that has really long lead times and gets tied up really quickly, what do you do?”

Charlie: [00:40:21] I mean it is helpful to think through, right though? Because we didn’t really even come up with all these answers ourselves, but on our trip we could decide, “Okay, this is what the blog post was going to be about,” and just talk through that concept, and try to figure it out for ourselves, what it would look like for the business.

Richie: [00:40:40] Yeah and we were sitting on the couch thinking through names, and do you remember the other options that came up? Because you came up with all these.

Charlie: [00:40:47] I think most of them were based around that similar idea of just different specific names in fashion. If I’m interested in something I pick up on the names really quickly and want to call it by the actual name. But I think we went through a couple of other ones, like The Cutting Table, The Cutting Room, something more along the lines of conversation stuff. And then realized that that’s not really what it was about, it wasn’t about a conversation, it was about finding these specific concepts that you were interested in, in regards to, obviously at that point it was all fashion stuff, and then expanding onwards from there, and opening it up, not to conversation, but the idea and unpacking that very specific idea.

Richie: [00:41:33] So the second to last piece of this was we had a class together.

Charlie: [00:41:37] Yeah, it was a Business Fashion class, which there were many of at NYU, and essentially as a group, you go through the process of coming up with an idea or a concept for a business based around fashion. You could have your own clothing brand and focus on that. You and I pretty quickly decided not to do that, because we’d have to have two random people looking at our business, essentially.

Richie: [00:41:59] We were thinking of ideas, and I think we always informally talked about, “How nice would it be, given all the production challenges we dealt with, to have everything we need under one roof, and to build a lot of services around that, to become some mode of a vertically integrated offering?” So we were talking about, if you had sampling, which is prototyping, you had production, which is scaling, if you had a showroom to sell to wholesale, you had a photography studio to photograph, you had a tech team to do e-commerce; we were thinking, “What is the ultimate tool kit you could give a brand? And how could we invite other brands into that fold to leverage the fixed cost and the cost efficiencies of doing that, and give everyone something better than if we did all of this stuff alone.”

Charlie: [00:42:38] Essentially just to say, a brand, starting from nothing could grow into a brand in multiple boutiques, just in this one space, never having to go anywhere.

Richie: [00:42:49] And we basically worked on this for a semester and presented at the end, and it was the best thing in the class.

Charlie: [00:42:54] They wanted to fund it.

Richie: [00:42:56] And we talked very seriously for a month or two about…

Charlie: [00:42:59] Pursuing it, if possible.

Richie: [00:43:01] Yeah.

Charlie: [00:43:01] There was just no place for it in New York, but we did talk about it and say, “This thing would probably exist in Los Angeles,” at the end of that conversation, but had no idea where one would even start.

Richie: [00:43:13] Right. And then I think the final part to that Gioventu story was really deciding, “Okay, this is not going where we wanted to go.” And me basically saying, “Hey I think we need to wind this project down.” And I think you were bummed.

Charlie: [00:43:27] Yeah I was definitely bummed. I mean, for me, it was a project that I had worked on for a long time, and I honestly had never really had to face the reality of the numbers, right? Because it was good enough to keep going, and I understood that a brand takes a long time to build. But essentially we did get to that point where there was a cutoff, and once I realized that, if it was going to work, it wasn’t going to work in New York, that’s when I decided.

Richie: [00:43:55] Yeah. I think we also realized that we had learned so much at that point, that if we were to do something again, we just needed a clean start.

Charlie: [00:44:00] Yeah and we wouldn’t do any of it the same way.

Richie: [00:44:03] So that happened and we slowly wound it down, graduated. And then you, this is where you can take over your story. So what, you move back to L.A….

Charlie: [00:44:11] Yeah. So once we knew that we were shutting down the business, I started to look back at home in Los Angeles where I was from, what I might do while I was out there. And I had worked in—my parents had this store on San Vicente, and they sold antiques and they had a furniture line as well, but they’d only manufacture the furniture line at this small shop, and basically made it for their clients. It was the piece that they couldn’t find, my dad would design the piece, make one of them, put it in the house. But all those patterns and samples and all that stuff was still there in its root, and essentially, they just didn’t know how to manufacture.

And so, me, coming from now knowing how to manufacture, learning all these things about price margin, how to build a scalable business model, and back chain supply chain, I went to them with this general idea that, if we just figured out how to actually manufacture furniture with a real manufacturer, that that could be a business, in and of itself. And also they didn’t have an online store at that point. And you and I had gone through and built multiple online stores at this point. So I knew, one, I could build them an online store, and two, I could figure out how to make a furniture business. So I moved back to Los Angeles, met with a bunch of furniture manufacturers, went through the same type of thing, eventually found a good manufacturer for that.

[00:45:40] And then from that point, my parents had been approaching me at the end of my time in New York to help them. My dad just wanted to make some custom pieces, or whatever it was. So coming back to L.A., I still knew that I wanted to do something in L.A. with clothes, it was always that, in the back of my mind, “If this was ever the time to do it, if there was ever a place to do it, it was here, now.” So me and my dad designed some clothes together and started sourcing stuff, and then my mom got into it and started doing stuff, and eventually just expanded that world of furniture and their design and all this stuff I grew up with, and turning it into product that I knew now how to make.

[00:46:25] I mean it was my master class in New York of manufacturing, but also telling a story that wasn’t yours, and learning how to speak in the language of the story, essentially Creative Direct. I mean, that’s what all Creative Directors do is—I just happened to be in a good enough point where I grew up with this story, and could make them a line around their ideas.

Richie: [00:46:50] So how did that go, having, one, a fresh start, and two, a new slate of resources here in L.A.?

Charlie: [00:46:56] Yeah, it was incomparable. It’s a much nicer environment to make things in. I quickly realized that everything was separate, but that people actually knew each other here, and they would help you get stuff around, and give you resources for where to do stuff, and since there’s just more space, you have stocking dealers. So essentially, if I want to go pick up two hides of suede to test something in, I can go get it from someone at not a crazy price point, because they are not paying New York real estate prices. So you can go through that process.

[00:47:31] The hardest part of moving to LA was that there was no infrastructure built to make high quality garments. My parents brand is inherently high quality. They just do architecture at that level and interiors at that level, so their clothing had to be at that level. And I went through a bunch of manufacturers, a bunch of samples, trying to find someone who could actually make goods at that quality, and that was definitely the hardest point.

Richie: [00:47:59] And then work our way up to the present day and the factory.

Charlie: [00:48:04] Yeah, so along the process of looking for someone to manufacture these high quality goods, I ended up finding this small factory of guys. There was one pattern maker, one cutter, and six sample sewers, and all the sample sewers could also sew production. So after seeing them do their work, I knew essentially immediately that they could scale. And you don’t lose all that communication, which is what we went through in New York, which was the pattern maker didn’t know the sewer, didn’t know the grader, didn’t know the marker, didn’t know the—nobody knew each other.

Richie: [00:48:40] It was like an orchestra playing in unison, versus everyone warming up their instruments to reach the cacophony.

Charlie: [00:48:47] And then it was around that time when my parents stuff started to really take off, and it became clear that having a space to actually manufacture the goods, test things, and that speed that we could get, I could walk in in the morning with a sew-by reference, of just a pair of pants that I like, but I want to change everything about them, I just like the way that they fit. They could give me the final product by the end of the day. And so it became clear in the world of testing, which was back to what we had done originally, that you could actually test things in a week as opposed to this generally extremely thinned-out long time line.

Richie: [00:49:29] You built a mini Zara.

Charlie: [00:49:30] Exactly. If something hits, I can put out 200 of them, 300 of them in two weeks, and I can put out a thousand of them in a month. And so, that value was really clear upfront, and also it became clear that they were worth moving into a nicer location, to be able to utilize their time more effectively.

Richie: [00:49:57] And so I guess this thing’s real now.

Charlie: [00:49:59] Yeah it’s real. It’s in Eagle Rock. So, the factories are normally the crappiest part of downtown L.A., and this factory is in Eagle Rock. It’s a two story space. There’s a thirty foot cutting table, sample sewers, the pattern maker, the marker, the grader, all upstairs. And then downstairs there’s fabric walls, there’s a showroom space with hangers in it, there’s a photo studio, there’s an office room that has all the samples that we’ve ever pulled, all the swatch cards that we ever pulled, that people can go through.

So essentially, if you are a young designer, you can go through ideas off of cards that have taken me and my partner Garrett years to look through, and design an entire collection from any part of the world, order the fabric, get it shipped here, you could run upstairs, get the pattern made, give it to a sample sewer, the sample sewer will cut it, sew it, bring it downstairs, photograph it, then you can go upstairs again, manufacture it in numbers, and then you can put it on the rack downstairs. So you never have to leave. Blueprint. But now it’s Giannetti Factory. And my parents line is the in-house label. They are doing the highest quality work possible out of there. And we have six other brands right now that are also manufacturing stuff there and doing work there.

Richie: [00:51:30] What’s the most exciting piece of it, or as you’re looking to the future, what’s the plan?

Charlie: [00:51:35] I think the piece that I’m most excited for is boutiques. The boutiques have these built-in audiences, and with that comes the information of what types of products do really well, and also what their max price point is for that type of product. So they can come to me with just ideas for styles, just general concepts of things that have sold well in the past, whether it be a slim fit pair of pants, or a box fit hoodie that sold really well, but no one does anymore more. Then I can take those ideas and design them a collection with fabrics that we’ve already sourced, and do it all in-house and get them from sample to production, and give them pricing along the way and they’re able to say, “If you can give me a 3x margin…” which is better than anything they’d get from a wholesaler, they’ll just move forward with your product, they’ll move forward with their own private label, and they know that they’ll sell through it because they have that built-in audience that is already looking for that product, and already like shopping at their store.

[00:52:45] And then from that point it expands onwards, of saying, you now have this relationship with the store, and that is an incredible piece of Blueprint that we hadn’t even thought of originally, but is your entire distribution. It was that idea from Gioventu that was thinking of boutiques as less money in the bank, and more marketing. They’re proof of concept, but they’re also saying, “This person actually ships clothing. And it’s not a photoshop T-shirt on the wall. It really exists. You can come feel, it’s tactile, it feels great and we approve this”. They’re essentially just like any celebrity placement in saying, “We approve this garment.” So once you can have a couple other boutiques in your arsenal, essentially, and do their in-house labels, you just have this generally good in-going, out-going relationship that’s happening.

Richie: [00:53:46] What’s been the cheapest and most expensive lesson you’ve learned from Gioventu that you now apply in the new setup?

Charlie: [00:53:53] The most expensive lesson was not listening to the audience. So, when we made that flannel, it became clear that this was the piece that people wanted, and I’m not sure what exactly it was that made us not continue it, because obviously we could have just continued to make that flannel, but had we done that, who knows where the company might have gone, and it might have actually become a financially viable—flannel companies selling zip front flannels as the next great menswear piece. So I think that missed opportunity was the most expensive lesson I learned. But also, with my parents stuff and all the furniture pieces, once something hits, it’s always in the back of my mind, “What would it take to turn this dial all the way up?”

Richie: [00:54:42] And I think from our side, what was challenging was basically this tension between the creative and the business side, which was, I think it was fair to say that generally when you designed a piece, you were onto the next one.

Charlie: [00:54:53] Yeah.

Richie: [00:54:53] It took a lot to keep the attention span of a designer, especially given the stuff took months, by the time you’d stared at this T-shirt for four months, you’re like, “Just get me the next thing.”

Charlie: [00:55:01] Yeah.

Richie: [00:55:02] But there is always this thing of, “What is it like to stay on the fashion, on the trend side? What is it like to double down and build a really good core business?” So I think it’s generally a struggle for any company, whether it’s visible or invisible. But I think in retrospect, we’ve rehashed this conversation twenty times now, and in the following years, was an interesting thing of, “Should I have been more adamant or should you have been less forward-looking?” is an interesting exercise.

Charlie: [00:55:27] Definitely. I mean it all has to do with how you see yourself. I mean, at this point, now, I see myself less as a clothing designer, and more as a manufacturer. I make furniture and clothing and I also design spaces and help other people design their lines. So taking my own concept from start to finish, I don’t find the same satisfaction as taking a product, and giving it to the final customer, that I know wouldn’t have existed had I not made it, essentially. So that whole design process is not as interesting. I’m trying to have a product that is an incredible product. And now I’m able to do that with all the different pieces that I’ve made, and present it to the customer in that form.

Richie: [00:56:09] Cheap lesson?

Charlie: [00:56:10] Cheapest lesson was definitely, “Take the coffee.” You’re right, had I not been in that specific place in time, where I didn’t know what the next piece was, where I didn’t know what the next step was, I probably wouldn’t have given you the time of day to do something, especially because at the time I was looking for more people that were focused on fashion. And I had never seen somebody pick up something as quickly as you obviously have. So that lesson is still something that I focus on today and it didn’t cost me anything to learn, really. And so I think that those conversations that you have with people, wherever they may be, and those meetings with people that, if somebody reaches out to me, asks for advice or asks for literally anything, I am almost 100% going to have coffee with them or give them what they need to take the next step moving forward, with seemingly nothing to gain. But I know that there is something to gain, because who knows where you’re going to end up.

Richie: [00:57:18] Right. And I think that was the idea too, which was, for me it’s always been, “Take the fucking meeting,” because it’s this idea basically, “How do you optimize for the false negative?” Which is not knowing the thing that happened, because you didn’t do it.

Charlie: [00:57:30] Yeah.

Richie: [00:57:30] And that is a hundred times worse than doing something and having nothing happen, because at least you did it.

Charlie: [00:57:35] Yeah and it’s the cheapest lesson, because you’ll never know how much it costs you.

Richie: [00:57:38] Right, unless you do it.

Charlie: [00:57:39] Exactly.

Richie: [00:57:40] But I think it’s been cool because I think we’re both in very different positions today, as when we started. But it also feels like we’re almost doing the most pure versions of what we were supposed to be doing.

Charlie: [00:57:49] Absolutely. It was an enormous learning experience where we both learned the same things and taught each other a lot. I mean I learned how to actually run a fashion brand from you, because you went through the process of teaching yourself that, and I saw you do that, and how to build a business essentially we learned together, and then maybe I showed you a little bit about the fashion world from that first meeting. And even talking about different brands and stuff that we were interested in, different people, and just opening that up to one another was paramount.

Richie: [00:58:24] Yeah I mean I think there’s no Loose Threads without it. And the Giannetti business exists without it, but it doesn’t exist in its current form.

Charlie: [00:58:31] No not in its current form, that’s for sure.

Richie: [00:58:33] Awesome man, thanks for talking.

Charlie: [00:58:34] Yeah, my pleasure man.

Richie: [00:58:43] Thanks for listening to the Loose Threads Podcast. Sign up for Ripcord at and feel free to leave a review on iTunes. We always appreciate it. Thanks to George Drake Jr. for editing this episode. It was great talking with Charlie about our respective journeys, running Gioventu was the hardest thing I had done until Loose Threads assumed that position, but both have been equally rewarding. Thanks to everyone for listening to the podcast for the last fifty episodes, and here’s to another fifty. Speaking of which, Episode 51 is with Charlie Ambler of Strike Gently, who was also the first guest on the podcast, as we catch up about how the last two years have gone. Future guests include Jeff Hansen of Peter Manning, and Alejandro Chahin of Mott and Bow. Thanks for listening and talk to you soon.