#58. Saint James is the French heritage brand known for its sweaters and stripes—and, the oldest brand we’ve had on the podcast. We talk with President Luc Lesénécal about the power of heritage brands, the opportunities and challenges of evolving them to compete in modern times, and the benefits of domestic production and retaining this expertise in house. The Loose Threads Podcast features in-depth discussions with leaders across the rapidly changing consumer economy.

Check out the full transcript below.

Richie: [00:00:07] Welcome to the 58th episode of the Loose Threads Podcast, a show about the rapidly changing consumer economy. This episode is brought to you by Loose Threads Membership, which gives you actionable analysis, insights and events that drive growth, and Loose Threads Espresso, your energizing and high pressure filter for industry news—in context. We also have a newsletter that features the latest open letters to CEOs, podcasts with industry leaders and news from Loose Threads. Check it all out at LooseThreads.com.

Richie: [00:00:34] Joining me today is Luc Lesénécal, the president of Saint James, the French heritage brand known for its sweaters and stripes.

Luc: [00:00:41] When you buy a suite of essential items, you buy a story. You buy a dream—you can say, “Yeah, okay, I know the story of Saint James.” It’s really a type of quality and it’s like a uniform.

Richie: [00:00:53] This is the oldest brand I’ve had on the podcast and we had a fascinating talk about the power of heritage brands, the opportunities and challenges of evolving them to compete in modern times and the benefits of domestic production and retaining this expertise in-house. Here’s my talk with Luc Lesénécal.

Richie: [00:01:12] So why don’t we start talking just a bit about your background and then we can work our way up to you and Saint James working together.

Luc: [00:01:20] I was born in 1963. I did business studies and also I did a MBA at NYU, LSE and HEC in Paris. And I spent 24 years in a dairy company in France called Isigny Sainte-Mère—they are based in Normandy and they produce the original cheese from France, Camembert and butter and cream. And then I joined the company Saint James because I wanted to own a private company, because [Isigny] was a co-op. Even if Isigny is one of the best co-ops in France, when you work for a co-op as a managing director, you don’t have any shares because the shares belong to the farmers, but you have all the responsibility of the company without being a shareholder.

Richie: [00:02:17] It was a co-op, right?

Luc: [00:02:18] Yeah, yeah. It was a co-op. So at that time at Saint James, the previous CEO retired in 2012 and they decided to sell the company to the top management. But they were looking for a kind of CEO who can help them in developing the company in terms of marketing, export and tech or the management of the company. So I joined Saint James in 2012—about six years ago now. At that time I was looking for a company with the same values as the company I worked [at] before. That is to say, Isigny. And, I mean, an authentic company has real know-how [read: expertise]. All the marketing is based on this know-how, which is recognized by special awards by the French government to acknowledge an exceptional expertise. So many people asked me, “Why did you move from a dairy company to a fashion company?” But the base of these companies is [from] the same roots. The know-how is human no-know. Saint James, as I said, is a village with three hundred people who work there, but it’s run by families and the know-how is transmitted generation by generation. So that’s why I decide to join Saint James.

Richie: [00:03:43] So, tell me a bit about Saint James in terms of the history and the origin and then we can talk about when you came along and joined.

Luc: [00:03:52] So Saint James was born in 1889. It was a private company with two main specialities: wool and cotton. Saint James is based in a village in Normandy, just near the Mont Saint-Michel. At the beginning, it was a wool mill, specializing in wool. We knit very tight and it was for the sailors, to protect them against the elements. That was the beginning of the story of Saint James. And then, it became much more popular. After the sailors, Saint James started to work with the French navy in terms of wool and striped t-shirts—by the way, we still work for them, it represents about 10% of our revenue. And then, thanks to Coco Chanel, in the early 1930s—she was staying in Deauville, a very popular place in France. She looked at the sailors, people from the navy, and said, “Okay, it would be great to bring the striped t-shirts into fashion.” So thanks to Coco Chanel, we started to produce for fashion. Another evolution of the company was in the 60s when French people started to come to Normandy or Brittany for vacation. So they see the sweaters and bring [them] back to parties or to the south of France. So it was the beginning of the story, the fashion story, of Saint James.

Richie: [00:05:28] The brand for the longest time has been acquainted with the sea and sailing and those activities.

Luc: [00:05:35] Yes, we… We are born from the sea. First of all, garments to protect against the elements when you sail.

Richie: [00:05:44] So a very functional beginning.

Luc: [00:05:47] Yeah, very functional. And special know-how—we knit very tight. So it’s one of our know-hows. The second know-now we have is also human know-how. As an example, each piece is checked by someone who has been trained during [the course of] five years to spot any defects on the sweaters. That’s the reputation of Saint James. That’s its quality, in fact.

Richie: [00:06:15] Right. So, really high quality. And just to explain the knitting—basically the tighter the knit, the more protective it is against things that go through it basically, right?

Luc: [00:06:26] Yeah, yeah, yeah. We… say that the sweaters are almost waterproof. You can try it, it’s real.

Richie: [00:06:34] Which is not normal for a sweater, right?

Luc: [00:06:36] No, no, no. It also makes the sweater very comfortable to wear, because Saint James is “casual chic,” as we say.

Richie: [00:06:43] So, you transition from working with the military to the fashion piece coming in, and then you talked about when Coco Chanel started bringing [Saint James] more to the fashion side. How did it evolve, basically up until the 21st century?

Luc: [00:06:57] The development of Saint James was due to the 60s when the French people started to go on vacation—people travelled from all of the parts of France to Normandy and Brittany. And then, from the sea, we went inside all of the country in France, first of all.

Richie: [00:07:20] It sounds like the following years were spent really expanding across all of France from the sea to…

Luc: [00:07:25] From the sea to inside the country, even to the south.

Richie: [00:07:29] And then, did it start moving international at any point? Or has it mostly been in France up until you you joined?

Luc: [00:07:35] At the moment, we export about 40% of our revenue to the export market. But we started very early—about 35 years ago—with Japan because Japanese people were the first to look for real, authentic sweaters or striped t-shirts made in France. And now we export one-third in North America, one-third in Asia—so 35 years ago we started in Japan, and then ten years ago, we started in South Korea, and for the last four years, we started to export to China. The next step will be Middle East countries, I think.

Richie: [00:08:19] Did you have any interest or previous experience on the fashion/apparel side before, or not as much?

Luc: [00:08:26] Yes, I did, because when I was a student, I was 22 when I opened my first stores with clothes for children. We were very well known in France—Sergent Major. So, at the moment I have 18 stores, but I was the other side; I was in the store. I didn’t produce at that time, I was just selling. So I know a little bit about running a store, even if it is for children.

Richie: [00:08:56] And so, it’s quite interesting to move from a dairy company to a clothing fashion/apparel line. Was it easy, or was there a learning curve? What was it like to kind of move over?

Luc: [00:09:08] No, it was quite easy because [it had] absolutely the same value and the marketing is based on the know-how of the territory. Because to know is human know-how. So, for example, we when we opened the factory for the visit for tourists from France or from abroad… We opened the factory about three years ago, and I remember when I decided to open the factories people were saying, “Oh, you should not open because people are going to discover your know-how.” I said, “No, it’s human know-how. Everyone here has been trained during 18 months to work in the factory before they started their job.” So if you visit Saint James, you don’t see specific machines or new types of machines. It’s only know-how by hand, but only a few percentage of people stay after 18 months. I would say it’s only 20%.

Richie: [00:10:17] It’s like the military.

Luc: [00:10:19] Like the military. Like the military, yeah.

Richie: [00:10:22] So can you just explain the different kind of parts of the business? From my understanding, there’s the brand, right? You own the factory. What’s the landscape?

Luc: [00:10:32] So, first of all, Saint James is privately owned by the top management. At the beginning, it was a family business. And when they retired, the original family sold the business to the top management. So it happened in the 90s and it’s happened again in 2012 when I joined the company. In term of business, we have 10% with the French navy, then on the French market, we have 50 Saint James stores and I would say around 500 specialty stores with corners. That’s for the French market. In terms of exporters, I explained that we export 40% now in North America—we have two stores in New York, as an example, and also many specialty stores all over the U.S. and Canada. But we have also six stores in Japan, six stores in South Korea and some multi-brand stores also there. And that’s the way we run the business. I always say, “small is beautiful,” because our revenue is 55 million euros—that is around $65 million, which is not very big for a fashion company, but small is beautiful. We try to grow around 5% each year. The difference with Saint James and other brands is the fact that we are also the producer. So every year, I have to invest money in production tools. Generally speaking, I put one-third of the budget in opening new stores, one-third in marketing in general, and one-third of the budget in the production tools. So that’s why we have to go step by step.

Richie: [00:12:32] And so, when you joined in 2012, what was the state or health of the business?

Luc: [00:12:38] The business for Saint James has always been good business. I tried to keep the DNA, but to also change the fit because people wear striped t-shirts or marinier […] the way they wear it is not the same as [how] we wore it before. We made it more slim, but we didn’t change anything about the cotton. We use mainly natural materials—cotton, linen. As a matter of fact, 50% of the linen production is from Normandy in the world. So we use linen, cotton and wool.

Luc: [00:13:19] And I think during the last ten years, the consumer has changed. That’s maybe also explained the success of Saint James. Because the new consumer wants to know where and how the clothes he buys have been produced. Of course, the quality first. But when they know that there are 300 people working every day for many generations, that it’s been produced in France and with the quality, the spirit of Saint James… Everybody in France has a story about Saint James. I remember when I was ten, I used to come to Normandy to visit my grandmother and each year, she bought me a sweater from Saint James, which was itchy—the authentic ones are still itchy. So everybody remembers [that a typical] souvenir is Saint James clothes.

Luc:  [00:14:19] And also, in terms of markets, I see now two kinds of markets. You have the fast fashion, which changed the world, mainly with the supply chain—when it rains, you can find raincoats in the store; when it’s hot, you can find the t-shirts as soon as they weather changes. And then, you have premium brands, with quality. When you wear Saint James, you feel comfortable with the sweaters or striped t-shirts. Authenticity, origin, traceability. And each article in Saint James has a special label. And if you give me the label, I can tell you when and how, and who made the sweater you just bought. We have a unique code, barcode—that’s what the new generation of consumers are looking for. So this is the premium market. And [it’s] between the fast fashion and the premium market, [otherwise a] brand disappears.

Richie: [00:15:27] You’re either one or the other, you can’t be in the middle.

Luc: [00:15:29] Yeah, that’s what I think. And, of course, you have also the luxury—that’s another part of business.

Richie: [00:15:35] So there is fast fashion, low-end commodity…

Luc: [00:15:39] Yeah, because when you sell something, if you want success, you have to sell a difference. So, we know that fast fashion brought a difference, in terms of logistics, supply chain. And when you sell premium products, you sell also a difference. If you don’t have any difference, it’s only a competition of price and everybody can produce at a lower price. One day it’s A, the next it’s B.

Richie: [00:16:06] Until it’s zero.

Luc: [00:16:08] Yeah, that’s it.

Richie: [00:16:11] So, you consider Saint James a premium brand. It’s not pure luxury, but it’s not…

Luc: [00:16:16] No, it’s not pure luxury, because when you understand that to produce a sweater, you need around 15 miles of wool. That sweater went through 18 different hands and it took two weeks to produce the sweater. And that’s all around $150 in the store—it’s not so expensive. Luxury would be $500 or even more. And so [Saint James is] premium. It’s not so expensive. I like the English version of the word, which doesn’t exist in France with the same meaning. I like the value. The question I ask myself every day [is], “What is the value for the sweater or the striped t-shirts in the store, according to the consumer?” I wouldn’t say that Saint James is cheap, but it’s not so expensive if you follow all the different stages to produce sweaters in the Saint James factory.

Richie: [00:17:29] So in America right now, there’s a big movement around “made in the USA” and domestic production. It has connotations of craftsmanship, but they’re very industrial in a way—they’re not refined, it’s not quality-driven, it’s kind of… You know, we’re known in America for making cars, like these kind of industrial machines. In Europe, and I assume in France, you have this heritage of making the finest garments and fashion items and stuff like that and I’m curious to talk a bit about what does it mean in France to make stuff there? And then what does it mean when you export French goods? Because it seems more valuable than us exporting American goods.

Luc: [00:18:09] You’re absolutely right. What happened in the U.S. did happen in France in terms of industry. Everything was delegated outside Europe, outside France, only for costs, mainly on the label. And that is a new tendency. I wouldn’t say that it’s because Saint James is in France and it’s that we produced in France that we can sell everywhere. It’s first of all the quality and the know-how. But putting the “made in France” for the consumer […] explains the authenticity, origin. And I think for the consumer, the many people at the factory [are respected]. We give work to families. So, the re-localization, in terms of industry in France, as it is I think in the U.S., is becoming more and more popular, which I really think is a good thing. If you have a special know-how, too, [it’s a] difference in terms of product, in terms of quality. But when you see a Saint James sweater, the first thing you see is the quality of the wool. You try it—it’s comfortable, and when you see the label, it’s made in France. That’s, as we say, the cherry on the cake.

Richie: [00:19:40] Yeah. And, so when you see all these other companies moving production to Asia and the Far East, are you saying, “Go ahead and do that because we’ll keep making here [in France]? How do you look at the general trends of production?

Luc: [00:19:55] I think what we see in Europe, many, many companies took back their production from Asia. Many in terms of fashion—Portugal, France…

Richie: [00:20:07] Even for companies here, a lot now make in Portugal as well.

Luc: [00:20:11] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think in the U.S. and in Europe, people respect their labor, and also [it’s a question of] pollution, as we produce with natural fibers. It’s very important to protect the environment for the next generation. And also, when you produce abroad, far way, you cost energy to bring [it] back.

Richie: [00:20:38] The transportation costs, fuel and […] it adds up very quickly.

Luc: [00:20:40] But I think, in the future, I’m sure some countries will relocate. It’s a real tendency in France. And even in special areas, you have special know-how. I don’t know if you know the French slippers—Charentaise, which are made in Charente, a part of France—because of the local know-how [is] near the same [as Saint James’]. Because Saint James is a village near Mont Saint-Michel, near the sea with a special know-how. And I think the new tendency will go that way. I’m sure [of it].

Richie: [00:21:24] How do you think France has been able to preserve that when there always are cheaper places to make things? I think when we look at America right now, there’s an attempt to bring a lot of the garment production and the fabric production back, but they’re really struggling about what it [means] to make something in America when it will objectively cost more. And so how has France been able to maintain the perception of quality, but also the volume to continue to make it happen?

Luc: [00:21:54] You would be very surprised, but the main problem is not going to be the cost—it’s going to be to find people with know-how. We have in Saint James 300 people. We need, each year, 20 more people. And honestly speaking, when we are lucky, we find ten people. Even in France, there are still a lot of unemployed people. So, the next step is to educate on this kind of work because during the last 50 years, people were trained to go to university, to go into technology, but we have to show to the new generation. And we try to open our factory to schools, to students to show that there is not only the new technology—there is also handiwork. And people [who work at] Saint James are very proud. When we opened the factory to the public, at the beginning we said, “Okay, we have to maybe protect [ourselves]. Not to show everything, because it’s not a zoo.” But the workers said, “No, please. Let’s meet all the visitors because we are very proud.” So that’s the challenge, even for American industry and French industry—to find people who accept to work in this kind of factory and to be proud of their work.

Richie: [00:23:37] It’s not that it’s a last resort type of job, but [you can] actually build a livelihood and a career around having the skills and perfecting them…?

Luc: [00:23:47] Yeah, having the skills. Yeah. I don’t think it’s a question of price, because you can see now in Asian countries, salaries [are growing]. Of course there will be the two kinds of markets—the fast fashion, because sometimes you don’t need to spend so much money, but more and more [there is] the premium, because when you buy a sweater, you buy it not forever, because of course you want new colors. But in terms of quality […] I’ve got a very famous story. It happened one month ago in the factory, where one customer came directly in the factory and he said, “Oh, I bought a sweater. On the sleeve, under my watch, it’s a little bit torn.” So we have a reputation at Saint James to repair. So we took his sweater and said, “Okay, it will cost ten euros (about $12) to repair.” He said, “No, I don’t want to pay for that.” So people called me and tried to discuss about this customers and I said, “Okay, give me your sweater for five minutes.” I took his sweater. And then I came back to him and said, “Okay, you know, you bought your sweater 15 years ago in this store—because we have traceability—and asking you for ten euros fifteen years ago to repair your sweater is not so expensive. And he said, “Okay, do it, and thank you very much.”

Richie: [00:25:23] So, the quality and the durability.

Luc: [00:25:26] Quality, durability, traceability. When you buy a sweater from Saint James, you buy also a story. You buy a dream. You can say, “Yeah, okay, I know the story of Saint James, they still produce as they produced before, for the navy.” And honestly speaking, if the French navy still buys from us, it’s really a type of quality and authenticity. It’s like a uniform.

Richie: [00:25:58] You mentioned that there are 50 stores in France, there are few in North America, there are a few in Japan, there are few in Canada. Did those exist when you joined, or have you been expanding the retail footprint?

Luc: [00:26:08] Honestly speaking, we did expand the business. We have grown for the last five years by more than 30% in terms of revenue. Because also the fashion has changed. Of course, maybe it’s because of our communication and marketing—we always communicate our know-how and traceability, etc. But a few weeks ago I was in Paris in a special area called La Défense. It’s exactly like Wall Street in New York. When I started to work when I was 25, I used to wear a suit with a tie. And even the finance [district] in La Défense—I was having coffee outside on the street, you know, in a French cafe. And I saw people—the young generation, [in their] 30s—wearing white shirts, but with Saint James sweaters. It was not Friday—it was Tuesday. So, the way of people is…

Richie: [00:27:13] More casual.

[00:27:13] More casual—casual chic. Typical Saint James. That also explains the development of Saint James in terms of sales, I think.

Richie: [00:27:23] And then, in terms of opening stores: Did all the stores exist when you joined or have you been opening more stores?

Luc: [00:27:30] We open approximately […] between five and six stores a year. And we’re going to open in a new area, Les Halles, in Paris, very soon. We are opening in Berlin in Germany also. We are opening in Le Touquet very soon.

Richie: [00:27:51] You sell online as well, right?

Luc: [00:27:53] Yeah, we sell online, but with exactly the same marketing. Online is a very good opportunity to show not only the products, but we have many pictures and many films online to show how our sweaters or our striped t-shirts have been produced and to show the story of Saint James.

Luc: [00:28:16] I was quite surprised to see that when the consumer is coming to see online, he spends a lot of time—I mean, a few minutes, but which is quite a lot—to see the profile of the company. And we keep them informed—about every week something happens in the company and people in line like to share the story of Saint James, to follow the news. It’s a way to live it. But we are thinking how to associate online and offline business. Most of the time in France when we sell online, the consumer has the choice [for it] to be delivered at home or to [pick up] the clothes in the store the next day to where he lives. So generally when he goes to the store, if he has ordered a sweater, he can buy a pair of trousers, or scarf or whatever. So we don’t have to oppose online and offline. It’s a wool business. That’s also the new challenge we have to follow for the next years.

Richie: [00:29:29] And then, in a world where online sales are growing… What do you see as the value, the purpose, the benefit of both owning your own stores and then also wholesale, which you do a lot of as well, right?

Luc: [00:29:42] I think it’s a wool business, and we will increase both. Off- and online are really linked and coming into a Saint James store is also to feel and experience. If you go to our two stores in New York, it’s a very specific atmosphere. It tells a story to the consumer. So, I think offline and online are absolutely complimentary.

Richie: [00:30:13] And then, you talked a bit about this before, but expand upon growth and scale and how do you look at growing the business, how big do you want this to be and how do you decide where to go next? Because it’s an international business, you’re selling among a lot of channels, it’s very large and real.

Luc: [00:30:30] If I take the next ten years, our revenue at the moment is 55 million [euros]. We have to reach 100 million euros. And to export 50% of our revenue. I don’t want to be “big,” it’s just a question of keeping our independence. But again, step by step. I say in the next 10 years, but it can be in the next 15 years—just do it properly.

Richie: [00:31:01] Yeah. You mentioned before that when you joined the company, the biggest thing you changed in a way was the fit and just kind of keeping the DNA, but updating a bit of the stuff around it.

Luc: [00:31:14] Yeah, we changed the fit. We kept the materials, we kept the fabric, we kept the way of producing. But for example, [on] the traditional sweaters, we [added] some patch. We changed the buttons, we put [out] colors—new colors. In the last five years, we gained ten years in terms of the average consumer age. We were maybe 50, 55, 60-years-old. Now the average is 40. We have a younger generation, but we haven’t lost the generation of [the 60-year-olds], whom I do appreciate because, also, when a lady or a guy is 60, he wants to have comfortable clothes, modern clothes. If you remember your grandmother, she didn’t wear what the new generation wears. For example, a pair of jeans. If you are over 80, you can wear a pair of jeans and you want to look young […] and that’s the new generation also.

Richie: [00:32:30] And so, I guess on that note, when you think of the design or the aesthetic of keeping, as you said, most of the core DNA of the brand, but improving little bits here, little bits there—almost in contrast to the fast fashion, which basically reinvents itself every day or week, what does that say to you about the timelessness of simplicity and minimalism that you’ve been able to kind of ride on the same horse, so to speak—and evolve it and improve it, but not throw out everything so frequently? What does that mean about the longevity of the company and the heritage that you’re working with?

Luc: [00:33:07] We have two basic colors with navy, but we have different kinds of blue—navy, dark navy or light navy. And more than 50% of sales are based on this navy because it’s traditional. You can wear striped t-shirts with a pair of jeans, but also with ladies’ shirts, it’s flexible. And [it’s] also, for example, a way of promoting the brand. Next year, I think we have a very good collaboration with Woolmark—they selected Saint James for its quality and for its know-how. And of course we’ll have a new sweater, new dress in wool. We asked a freelance designer—so it’s also a question of design, modern design, but with the same quality and with the same traditions. So it’s a mix between the two.

Richie: [00:34:14] Which I think is really interesting in a time when there are a lot of… I mean, I think if you look at LVMH, if you look at Kering, some of the big kind of luxury companies, they’re all trying to figure out how does heritage exist today? How do you take these roots and the DNA that you talked about and make it attractive to a modern younger consumer? And it seems like a very interesting tension to get that right.

Luc: [00:34:35] Difficult to [strike] the balance. I would say that the fashion is coming to Saint James. Saint James doesn’t have to go to fashion. But the balance is very, very difficult. It’s always a challenge each season. If we go too far, the risk is to lose our traditional consumer. If we don’t challenge anything—as an example, the fit—we don’t get the new generation. So as the CEO, I have to always listen to make decisions between the stylists. We have 20 people in charge of style based in Saint James, and many service people. People in our stores, they want new things, but they also [say], “Oh, please keep this kind of style for the next season, because it was doing so well in the store.” And the stylists say, “Okay, no, no, we have to change everything.” So it’s always a balance. It’s difficult because people’s mentalities change very, very fast. Very, very fast.

Richie: [00:35:46] What has been the cheapest and most expensive lesson you’ve learned since working on Saint James?

Luc: [00:35:55] The lesson I learned was the approach of the Chinese market. Three years ago, the Saint James brand was absolutely unknown in the Chinese market. We started to develop some centers in specialty stores with the new generation of Chinese people who have been traveling or studying in the U.S. or in Europe and they start to know the brand and the value of the Saint James brand. We decided to go on the internet as well. And I had a very bad image of the Chinese internet, I thought it was only for certain brands, etc. But I was totally wrong. I would say that the Chinese internet is far more developed all over the world with real brands, real stories and real products. And I was sad [to hear] that in the next ten years, half of the luxury products will be sold on the internet in China. So that was the biggest surprise I had in the company because when we decided to go to China, [I had it in my] mind to open very nice stores and premium in Shanghai, in Beijing. We did the other way. We were right to do it the other way. But it was my first season.

Luc: [00:37:35] And my biggest mistake maybe [was] to renew the stylist team. We tried to work [out] something with freelance stylists where there were a lot of demands, but we don’t name names. We need talents. We had a bad experience with a stylist who wanted to put his name with our brand. So at the beginning, we said, “Okay, it [might] help.” We did that for three or four products. But I was totally wrong. Because people buy the brand—they buy Saint James for the history and know-how and all that I explained to you before. We don’t need to have a brilliant stylist’s name. That was the biggest mistake I made, I think.

Richie: [00:38:28] And then, as you look into the future—the next few years. What is coming and what are you most excited about?

Luc: [00:38:36] I’m very proud and very excited by the Woolmark campaign because it’s going to be an international campaign. I was very proud that they selected us to say, “We would like to go with you for the value you have, because you have one of the biggest influences [when it comes to knitting].” We have the biggest factory and we have, I think, the best know-how. So I’m looking forward to seeing this collaboration next year.

Richie: [00:39:08] Awesome. Thank you so much for talking.

Luc: [00:39:09] No, thank you very much for your invitation. Thank you very much. I would like you to come and visit us in Normandy. You will be more than welcome.

Richie: [00:39:26] Thanks for listening to the Loose Threads Podcast. Check out all we have to offer at LooseThreads.com and feel free to leave a review on iTunes. We always appreciate it. Thanks to George Drake Jr. for editing this episode. We have a great roster of upcoming guests including Joe Ferrara of Resonance, Michael Pollak of Heyday and Ben Kaufman of BuzzFeed. Thanks for listening and talk to you soon.