#101. Soko Glam is an online Korean skincare marketplace for education, discovery and connection. We talk with co-founders Charlotte and Dave Cho about building a curated ecommerce platform that brings K-beauty to American audiences. The Loose Threads Podcast features in-depth discussions with leaders across the rapidly changing consumer economy.

Check out the full transcript below. 

Charlotte: [00:00:01] I became the perfect person to reach out to and kind of break it down for them, demystify what Korean beauty was, what these brands are about, if they were popular in Korea, so I became their source.

Richie: [00:00:15] That’s Charlotte Cho, co-founder of Soko Glam—an online Korean skincare marketplace that she launched in 2012 with her husband Dave. After meeting in South Korea—where Dave was stationed for the U.S. Military and Charlotte was working in Samsung’s PR department—the duo launched a curated ecommerce platform to bring everything that Charlotte learned about K-beauty back home to American audiences.

Richie: [00:00:36] I’m Richie Siegel, the founder of Loose Threads, which analyzes and advises next-generation consumer companies, and FaceLift by Loose Threads, which provides retail strategy and infrastructure for leading brands and retailers. For our latest analysis and insights, check out our free weekly newsletter at LooseThreads.com.

Richie: [00:00:53] I started the Loose Threads podcast to spark engaging discussions with leaders across the consumer economy. That’s why I was excited to talk with Charlotte and Dave about their burgeoning ecosystem, which includes their ecommerce platform Soko Glam, their editorial site The Klog, and their recently launched premium beauty brand, Then I Met You. Here’s how it all began.

Charlotte: [00:01:19] So, 2012 is when Soko Glam was established. But prior to that, I was living and working in Korea, and Dave was as well, and I was just falling in love with the whole skincare culture. They had a very skin-first philosophy, which was very new to me as an American, and I fully adopted it. I saw my skin completely transform and I wanted to share that. So I did. I would just tell my friends that were based in California about all the things that I have learned and they wanted recommendations, they wanted to know how to use the products, and I realized it was really hard for them to get that information. So I became their source. And there was this moment where Dave and I were both going back to California for the holidays, and they had given me a list of products they wanted me to bring back.

Charlotte: [00:02:05] So we stuffed our suitcases, filled with these Korean beauty products, and when we got there we were handing them out, and I was telling them how to use them and how to take care of their skin. So that was kind of the light bulb moment for me and Dave. We decided, “Hey, it’s not only really hard to get your hands on these products, but people just generally don’t know enough about skincare.” And we realized this would be a great way to bridge the gap. We would introduce products that we personally loved and we wanted to carry into a site that was easy to shop and, in the meantime, also learn about how to take care of their skin in the process.

Dave: [00:02:37] Kind of the joke now, today, is that I’m like this ex-combat arms military officer that now knows way too much about cosmetics. And obviously this was not my idea, it was Charlotte’s idea, just how much passion she had for the topic, it was really a passion project. That’s really what it was. It was Charlotte’s favorite things, kind of online. She wanted to share this passion with people, and not only providing these products but also talking about them.

Dave: [00:03:03] And the fact is, now that we look back—kind of your questions about looking back—these products were actually in the U.S. for decades. They’ve been imported and it’s been retailed in these stores. A lot of them are mom-and-pop shops that also sell Taiwanese products, Japanese products and Korean products, but it’s just rows and rows of products, and there wasn’t enough people talking about them. And so, what was really great is that Charlotte’s passion of educating people and just really driving that passion was all it was supposed to be. It wasn’t really supposed to be a big business, but that was really how we started.

Richie: [00:03:36] So I guess the first question that comes up is: Generally, when there is the goal to provide education and recommendation, do you end up with more of a media site than you do an actual ecommerce site? Did you think about doing that, or you knew that the fulfillment of these goods, along with the discovery piece, was the only way to solve what you wanted to solve?

Dave: [00:03:55] We didn’t know what we were doing. It was just like, literally Charlotte’s just, passion. Like, it was her outlet to be able to share her passion. And so, then when I look back and how it all kind of came about is, we had a feeling this would be so exciting to be able to have Charlotte’s favorite products, the stuff that works for her, and just to provide some of them online. And as she was educating, we just found that these things just kind of flew off the shelves, and it was one article written by DailyCandy—you know, they’re not around anymore, but we remember them and we thank them, because they were really our first PR hit. And once that got published, it was just like a couple of paragraphs, our site blew up. I mean it kind of crashed and, you know, these products were just sold out.

Dave: [00:04:42] And so I think it was that in the Soko Glam beginning years, we were very much known as a highly-curated site that, if you do not jump on it, these products will get sold out. So we were just trying to feed this demand for years, actually. But how we kind of turned into ecommerce was from that. It was just, we were so passionate about getting these products into people’s hands, we just wanted to get it to them. We were still headquartered in Korea, so we were paying a leg and an arm for shipping, because the focus was to get it to them as fast as possible. We didn’t want them to wait 14 to 21 days like everyone else in Asia. We wanted to get to them quickly. And so it wasn’t about really making money, it was about kind of fulfilling that passion and getting these products into people’s hands.

Charlotte: [00:05:22] And also, I did write a blog post for a lot of the products I curated, and it was embedded within Soko Glam. And I found that anytime I wrote about a particular product, that would sell out. And people would email me, through the customer service channel, “How do I use this product? Can you set up other products to help me figure out a routine?” And so, the more questions are coming at me about their skincare routine, I realized how lost people were. So that’s where I started to invest more of my time writing content on Soko Glam through the blog called The Klog, which, eventually, after a few years we decided it was such a powerful and awesome tool that people were loving, that we decided to reinvest in it even more, and pull it out of Soko Glam, and create TheKlog.co, which is now its own thriving content site.

Richie: [00:06:10] And so, were you buying the products wholesale, basically, and then—or were they on consignment, or how did that work? Because they were limited as you said, which I think sounds like it turned into a good thing, actually.

Dave: [00:06:19] In the beginning it was literally us walking the streets, looking for, first the products that Charlotte loved, talking to people, talking to the sales folks, and looking at what people were really loving, and just buying them retail.

Richie: [00:06:31] Retail, okay.

Dave: [00:06:32] To be honest, buying them retail. And, you know—

Charlotte: [00:06:34] If you were lucky there was a sale, but…

Dave: [00:06:36] Yeah, if you were lucky there will be a 30% sale or 40% sale. Sometimes they’d do like, 10 plus 10 for [something] like sheet masks. And so, we were buying them retail. We didn’t have these relationships in the beginning but, over time, as we got bigger, you know, we established regular distribution contracts.

Richie: [00:06:52] Yup. So were you marking them up then? Or were you making no money?

Dave: [00:06:55] We were basically not making money. We were not making money in the beginning but—

Richie: [00:07:00] But there was demand.

Dave: [00:07:01] There was definitely demand. I mean, we were only marking them up a little bit. We were making maybe a 20% margin on each product but, I mean, shipping and handling was like 10% right off the bat. So it was a profitable business model. It didn’t take much capex to actually get it going. Just took a lot of blood, sweat and tears, really.

Richie: [00:07:20] What do you think made—’cause there’s always questions, and PR is generally a very unquantifiable thing. It’s very hard to get it to work how you want it to. It’s a bit of a weird beast. Do you think there were certain parts of where you both were at that time, where the story was, where the business was that made it compelling for them, versus—’cause they’re just getting inundated with a billion of, kind of, the same things. Were there specific parts that you guys had that you think made it more successful on that route?

Charlotte: [00:07:47] Yeah, the products were honestly very innovative. It filled a huge white space where the products really, honestly, were affordable enough for anyone to kind of explore and discover. They’re innovations that no one ever heard of, so there needed to be articles written about it, because they needed to explain further and dive deep. And skincare as a topic, as a whole, was not hot at the time. And so, there was a whole host of different topics that they could dive into.

Charlotte: [00:08:13] And so, they didn’t have any information or spokesperson to really reach out to, because anyone that they would try to reach out in Korea, they just wouldn’t respond because there was a language barrier. So I became the perfect person to reach out to, and kind of break it down for them, demystify what Korean beauty was, what these brands were about, if they were popular in Korea. So, I became their source, and that really helped me cement myself as, you know, the leader in the space, and being able to share all my ideas and thoughts about it, and the techniques.

Dave: [00:08:42] You know, we’re extremely proud that we were a first mover when it came to K-beauty, but we have a much bigger mission. Our mission is actually to help all people believe there are only good skin days ahead—we put skin in parentheses. It doesn’t say K-beauty in there. It obviously talks a lot about your skin and skincare. And so, it’s extremely motivating and inspiring to actually see skincare as a category grow. And we’re playing a piece of that, a small piece of that.

Dave: [00:09:09] And I think it’s so great to see even the consumer today to be a lot more savvy about their skincare. And it’s always been about education for us, and we use PR as a tool to educate and, you know, we’re doing other things today. But, to answer one of your other questions, at the beginning, our focus was really about education. It was about creating content, because again, these products were always here, but it was about making sure that people understood how to use these products. And, really, the curation. Charlotte is our chief curator, still to this day. She touches every single product on the website no matter how busy she is.

Dave: [00:09:39] And, you know, our curation has grown, almost doubled in the last year, and before that it’s been growing even faster. We find that to be extremely important because, if you walk into one of these big retailers, it’s really hard to understand what you should buy. You really need some kind of help, whether it’s somebody in store or checking online, checking reviews. And so we try to make sure we think about our curation, always. We want people to trust what we have to offer, and that it’s gone through a pretty rigorous process to include Charlotte’s own skin. But it’s not only for her own skin, that we have a whole team that kind of looks at, you know, making sure we’re smart about our curation, our education and our content.

Richie: [00:10:16] Talk about maybe the differences between the audience and, I guess, just the consumers over in Korea that you’re sourcing the product from, and then over to America where it’s being delivered. And I’m also curious like, where the audience was between those two places, and maybe what their own perceptions of you were, between them, as well.

Charlotte: [00:10:34] Oh yeah. When we were in Korea, the brands didn’t really realize the potential of Soko Glam until we proved ourselves, honestly. So, just to talk about how we were just literally walking down the streets and finding products that I love, and just buying it at regular retail price and selling it. We didn’t have any official partners until what, one year later? And we were able to show that we had an audience that loved the products and loved the genuine story that was explaining to them why I personally liked it, and I was educating them about the product. And so they saw the value in us and then they partnered with us. We actually got a few big name skincare brands to be on our site officially, which was such a happy moment I remember.

Richie: [00:11:16] What do you think the tipping point was for them?

Charlotte: [00:11:17] They just saw how we were interacting with the products and, honestly, our volumes that we were going through, and they just let me tell their story. And they were really excited and happy about how it was being told, and we are getting them, honestly, in magazines that they never even dreamed of. And we were making them very relevant in, on social.

Charlotte: [00:11:37] As long as they let me curate the products that I loved, that system was working for them. So, rumor spread in Korea that Soko Glam is a very legit site, that we are actually really, really passionate about their products. And, if she selects your products, you’re in good hands. That was kind of the perception. And then, the consumer in Korea, they’re not brand-loyal. They actually don’t really care about utilizing one brand throughout their entire routine, which is actually very separate and different from what the U.S. consumer was experiencing at the time. And so, they’re very savvy. As long as it worked, the products were efficacious and it delivered, they were willing to try different products. In the U.S., the consumers were, “I am going to use what my grandma used and what my mom used, and I’m sticking with it cause that’s all I know, and that’s all I care about.”

Charlotte: [00:12:22] So over the past couple of years—and even now, especially now—I have seen the transition completely. So now they’re very much like the Korean consumer; They’re not brand-loyal, they love to explore and discover and they’re really looking to be more savvy. They’re researching on their own, they know their own skin type. It’s becoming a very developed Korean consumer. And I used to always rave about the Korean consumer, cause I would always say, “They’re so educated, they’re so knowledgeable. They walk into the store and they tell the store clerk exactly what they need, because they know how skincare works, and how the biology of their skin is.” And I’m seeing that being mirrored in the U.S. as well, and people are definitely more savvy. And that makes it better for the whole industry, because a savvy consumer will create a savvier industry and that will pressure companies, that are the top companies that didn’t have to worry about this before, to be better and to produce better products.

Richie: [00:13:10] Where does that come from over there, in terms of, why are consumers more educated and knowledgeable? Is there a root to that?

Charlotte: [00:13:16] They’ve always cared about skincare first, and they love healthy glowing skin versus covering it up with makeup. That’s been their philosophy. So they love diving deep in that, and that’s just part of the culture, really.

Richie: [00:13:27] Right? So it’s rooted culturally versus, we don’t have that necessarily in America driving that as much. I guess it’s also interesting to the PR piece before of, if you were just a recommendation site, you would be competing with all these magazines and these editors and so forth, but because you’re actually selling the products, it’s a little bit, you’re in a different lane than them, versus you would be out, just out curating their own picks and so forth and they seem quite receptive to it.

Dave: [00:13:50] I think the way that we look at it from a structural point of view is, you may or may not have heard about the 10-Step Korean Skincare Routine. Charlotte coined that term. It really wasn’t about 10 steps. It was about education. Using it as a tool to educate and say, “Hey, these are the steps that you could incorporate into your routine.” And so it’s such a drastic difference from what—at the time, most people maybe only had one step, you know? Or as I’ve run into some people, where they’re in their mid-30s or late-30s and they’re saying they don’t even wash their face at night sometimes, or in the morning, depending upon if they wore makeup or not, you know?

Dave: [00:14:26] We used PR, so Charlotte really understood PR. So we knew that we needed to build some credibility. We needed to kind of grow the audience and have—grow the pie. Like, the K-beauty pie, and make sure that those stories are being told. I think as the popularity grew, you know, as the pie got bigger for K-beauty, we kind of realized after a while that we really wanted a control to make sure that these stories were being told right, in a way that is authentic. And so, it’s really great to see that, how much it’s grown, actually, in the last few years on. I still don’t think we’re in competition because, you know, we don’t run ads. It’s truly meant for content. We don’t do sponsored content. We have a very engaged audience that just wants to be educated and learn more about these products, these techniques, even about like, the lifestyle. You talked about culture, people are fascinated about it.

Charlotte: [00:15:14] There [were] a lot of naysayers in the beginning of Soko Glam.

Richie: [00:15:17] What was the most hurtful one?

Charlotte: [00:15:19] I think it was, “Okay, so your plan is to sell skincare products that no one has ever heard of, to an audience that doesn’t really want to use the products and they’re not interested or curious about it, and it’s going to be online where they can’t touch and feel the product. How are you going to do that? You don’t have a brick and mortar store, you know. How are you going to sell things online that people have not tried physically?” And that was a great point, but we could have ignored it because again, as Dave was mentioning, you know, as a passion project, we don’t have capital to really make this into a business. We don’t have a business plan for this. So we just worked with what we got, and luckily it was the right, the right path. And you know, [in] 2012, keep in mind that none of the big retailers were even trying to sell cosmetics online at the time. Fast forward [to] 2019, everyone’s trying to sell cosmetics, whether you’re a beauty site or a lifestyle site, but people are definitely willing to invest and discover products online, even though it’s something that you’re gonna put on your skin.

Dave: [00:16:16] It’s a very quintessential story of the contrarian idea. That everyone thinks you’re crazy.

Charlotte: [00:16:22] Crazy.

Dave: [00:16:22] And then it turns into industry. In 2014 we saw just a proliferation of competition.

Richie: [00:16:27] Right. You’re now consensus.

Dave: [00:16:29] Yeah. They’re—oh yeah, some people just want to make a few bucks and they started their own sites or they would you know, start their own businesses. And it’s actually very flattering to see so much competition come about because we were able to kind of pave the way, and we do want the pie to get bigger.That’s actually, everyone actually gains from that. And again, our mission is much bigger than just the K-beauty pie. We really want the consumer to benefit.

Richie: [00:16:54] The last question I guess I have on this time period is, I’m curious to talk a bit more about kind of how the content started, what channels it was kind of coming through and then also the role that social played. ’Cause you were also at a somewhat more nascent time for Instagram and other places that you were, and I’m curious kind of how that evolved, too.

Charlotte: [00:17:08] So, as I mentioned earlier, I did write blog posts within SokoGlam.com.

Richie: [00:17:13] Right. So it started with just pure text and, and photos.

Charlotte: [00:17:16] Yeah, text. It was very—I mean, looking back on it, it’s kind of funny. Like, I got the content—

Richie: [00:17:20] Are they still up, on the site?

Charlotte: [00:17:21] They kind of are. I think you could find it, but it was just, you know, I was just like doing it in my free time. You know, just trying to get my tips up there without really thinking about the quality of the photos. Then we realized that it was so popular and people wanted more of it, so it became less of a, “Oh, I’ll do it when I have time. No, I’m going to actually focus on it.” And I was writing columns for Allure and Teen Vogue and I was like, “Oh, why am I spending all my time writing this content for these other publications?” I was like, “I should just write more and focus it on, on the platform we have.” And so I did. I focused on it, and it was great, great reception. And so, in 2016 we decided to actually invest more in it, and pull it out of Soko Glam, ’cause we realized there’s so much we want to say, embedding it in, within Soko Glam, just got lost, and it wasn’t enough space to really talk about all the topics we wanted to talk about. And so, we created TheKlog.co on a separate URL. And people, again, another, another uh, hiccup or naysayer. They would say, “You guys are crazy. I mean, why would you want to take out your content? ’Cause SEO-wise, it helps Soko Glam to just put as many keywords as you can. And secondly, you guys are kind of detracting from the checkout process when you tell them to go look at other things at another site. What if they don’t come back?”

Charlotte: [00:18:35] And so again, we just knew how important content was. So we just stuck with it. We’re like, “Yes, this is not an Ecommerce 101 best practice, but we’re just going to go this route.” And we’re so glad we did because I mean, The Klog, as Dave said, is really popular, and we have, you know, half a million uniques per month, which is not small. It’s very, very robust traffic. And actually nowadays, when I talk to people that shop at Soko Glam, they come up to me and they say, “I love The Klog and Soko Glam.” They’re always referencing The Klog as being a very big point of their journey.

Richie: [00:19:06] So I think the decision to spin out The Klog was, I would say, one of two, call them major contrarian decisions. I think launching Then I Met You as its own thing, which we can talk about in a bit, was probably the second. I’m curious just to, I guess, talk through the strategy a little bit more. Did you doubt whether spinning it out would be a good idea, ’cause you see everything that Amazon is doing privately, and all these things are just saying, “We have an audience here. How do we just put stuff in front of them and continue getting them to buy it.” But you very intentionally, you know, bifurcated those things and then, a second time, launched a new thing and then separated that. Was it I guess just still intuition or were there doubts about it? It’s just a really, I guess in hindsight, maybe somewhat obvious decision, but in the moment it seems like, again, it’s a weird thing to do.

Dave: [00:19:51] It’s very contrarian. Trust me. Like people, you know, have opinions about it all the time. I think it ultimately comes down to our vision. We’re bringing something much bigger than what Soko Glam could be alone, what The Klog could be alone, what Then I Met You could be alone. In a way, I think to, to kind of speak like, not to use too many buzzwords [but] we’re building an ecosystem. And I think that it also is driven by how much respect and passion we have for each brand. For Soko Glam itself, yeah, I think that there’s a lot of models out there where they say, “Hey, we’re just going to build a private label and call it ‘Soko Glam’ and, you know, just put it and sell it on the platform.”

Richie: [00:20:25] Right.

Dave: [00:20:25] And then, or the content will also be on that platform. And then also, you know, everything else. And that model, I think could work for some people, but for us that’s more limiting. And we just didn’t want to dilute the brand. We wanted Soko Glam to be known for what it is, which is what people love. They trust the curation, they trust what Charlotte has to say. They really trust our, even our PDPs, we got a comment last week from a customer that said, “Whoever writes your PDPs, your product descriptions, please give them a high five, because I love reading your product descriptions.” Who says that? I don’t know of anybody that said that about Sephora’s product descriptions, right?

Dave: [00:21:01] And we spend an insane amount of time on each and every brand and we care about it that much. And the higher picture and the higher vision is that we’re building something that’s much, much bigger than each one of those things individually. But, working together, which they do, all on the back end, it makes them all work so much better. And, not to say that they’re all the same customer, either, right? And I think that, just as one quick example, when we pulled out The Klog, another kind of example that really kind of drove us to make that decision was that sometimes it takes years to curate a product on Soko Glam. That’s the type of relationship that we try to build when we bring products onto the site and bring brands onto the site. And sometimes it just takes that much time for them to want to trust us, right? Because we’re still building our brand.

Dave: [00:21:46] But some of these stories need to be told now. And so we tell a lot of stories on The Klog that we don’t even sell on, on Soko Glam. And a good example is this: When we relaunched The Klog, when we pulled it out, we threw a whole big launch party down in Soho. Our brand sponsor was Amorepacific. They are the biggest Korean beauty conglomerate in the world, by far. And we didn’t sell any of their products at the time, but they wanted to launch with us ’cause they understood our value, and they were a great partner to us. So that’s a good example of how that vision is bigger—and not to say it’s bigger than Soko Glam’s, but it’s bigger than what it could be with Soko Glam. We need it to be at its own path, its own vision.

Charlotte: [00:22:24] We’re honestly just really confident in our ability to create brands. So Soko Glam is one, as Dave mentioned, and The Klog is another. And it’s a lot of work and effort, honestly. Kudos to the team who puts their blood, sweat and tears to make this all into reality, but we’re confident that even though it’s going to take a little bit of time and a lot of effort, it’s gonna be its own standalone brand that people are gonna trust and love. So that’s why, even with Then I Met You, we were again doing another brand, new social handles, new traffic, new URL, but we’re like, “You know what? We’re confident in our ability to build another brand that people are gonna love and it’s gonna have a totally different point of view, and people are gonna love.”

Richie: [00:23:06] Okay, so you raised money [in] 2016. How did you generally plan to spend that money and I guess, what was the goal of using the $2 million? Because I assume it was the first time either of you had ever raised institutional capital.

Dave: [00:23:17] Yeah. Definitely the first time we’ve seen that many zeros in a, in a checking account. I remember, I still remember the day. I was like, “This is not real.” You know? I was definitely pinching myself. It was a cool moment. You know, we really wanted to build a team. I would say it took us two years to really figure out what kind of team we wanted to build.

Richie: [00:23:32] And how many people were you, before you raised the money?

Dave: [00:23:34] I can’t remember exactly. We were probably right around six plus a couple of interns, something like that.

Richie: [00:23:40] Just doing everything.

Dave: [00:23:41] Just, yeah. And now we’re at close to 50, so we’ve grown a lot. We’ve actually doubled in size just from last year.

Richie: [00:23:46] Wow.

Dave: [00:23:46] But yeah, a lot of that capital was meant to just really build a team, but obviously to build more resources, to make sure that we can move faster. It wasn’t like, “Now we’re going to build “x.’” It wasn’t like that. It was actually kind of, “Let’s build a team. Let’s help build a culture that, you know, we can really have as our foundation.” That, you know, you’ve got to crawl before you walk, walk before you run. And we were in a crawl stage then, but we wanted to get quickly to run phase. And right now we’re basically sprinting, because we feel so good about the team that we have.

Dave: [00:24:17] But a part of that was, you know, basically, a year later, we brought on our very first ops hire. So before we were even 20 people, we brought on our first basically HR person, which is pretty rare, I would say. But that shows you like, you know, we put our money where our mouth is. We really cared about our people, we cared about our culture, building the right type of team. And we were serious about that. And I’m particularly passionate about that. Yes, I went from something drastic, from the military to beauty, but in terms of what I’m, what gets me up in the morning is really the same thing. It’s about the team and being a part of a higher mission. We’re still true to that now. Like, we really care about our team so much, and you can’t achieve anything without having the right team. A lot of people know that, I think it’s really hard to put into practice but, for us, we try to put our money where our mouth is.

Richie: [00:25:06] So at this point, you know, the business is getting bigger. I guess, what was starting to break about it? And/or, or be challenged at that phase that, you know, anytime, more capital and resources and people go into something, it’s bound to happen.

Dave: [00:25:19] It’s funny cause we invested in our people, but one of the big things that I think just really, I’ll just say it, just kind of broke was our culture. The only person I can blame is myself. I think that being in the position I’m in and the style that I had at the time was just not right. I’m a grinder. I’m somebody that puts a high amount of discipline in my own day and I have very high expectations, not only for myself, but everyone around me, and I don’t think that that was right for the culture at that time. And it was a very, kind of humbling experience for me to go through that.

Dave: [00:25:53] I think that once I brought in—her name is Marty—the first kind of HR person, things started to change. Not only for the company but starting with me. You know, I think we had amazing people, we still have amazing people, obviously, but going through that transition was just extremely painful for all parties. And I feel so good on where we are now. Like I said, it took us two years to really find our place.

Dave: [00:26:18] And everyone talks about culture. There’s no entrepreneur that starts a company [and] says, “I want to build a terrible culture.” Even the most calculating person would say it’s just good for business. Let’s create a great culture people want to be at. [It’s] great for retention and great for recruitment, all that. I think we just needed a lot of things to fix and I’m just so proud of where we’ve gotten to.

Dave: [00:26:40] And so it’s not completely fixed. I don’t think it’s something that you can ever say is completely there. But yeah, that was two years of just really investing in our culture and our people and paying really close attention to it. That’s a huge milestone in itself.

Richie: [00:26:52] Soko Glam’s going, The Klog is now going. Not enough for both of you. And so we say, where is, kind of the—

Charlotte: [00:26:58] This is where I broke.

Richie: [00:27:01] Where, where is the first moment where you go, “We should go start a brand.” And what was that, I guess?

Charlotte: [00:27:06] Yeah, so…  Well, it’s been something that I’ve always wanted to do. I knew that in a dream world I would be able to create my own skincare line. And although people had approached me early on, like year two—literally, year two of Soko Glam—they said, “Oh, when are you gonna create your own line?” It’s just, I guess, a natural progression for any retailer or, I guess, influencer. I wasn’t ready yet because it was just like, I just got into skincare like five years ago. I still have a lot to learn. This is just year two of—

Richie: [00:27:32] And mostly self-taught, no?

Charlotte: [00:27:33] Yeah, mostly self-taught. And then I went, I got my anesthetic license and I was just really, really getting to talk to the community. And then there was a certain point where, after several years, I said, “Okay. I’m ready now. I’m ready to really pour what I’ve learned into a new line.” And so I was really excited to jump into the process. I thought very long and hard about what I wanted to create. And, in a nutshell, I just wanted to create a line that not only focused on premium quality ingredients and an amazing experience—cause, you know, I’m very, very picky about my skincare, and I want to see results—but I also wanted this line to have a deeper meaning, and really inspire people in other ways that I’ve never seen any other skincare brand do. And that’s a big challenge in front of me, honestly, but it all started with the name.

Charlotte: [00:28:17] “Then I Met You” is a phrase. No skincare brand has a phrase as part of their name. And it evokes something that’s nostalgic. I dunno about you, when you heard it, what it meant to you. I think every person can interpret [it a] different way, but it’s meant to signify a turning point in someone’s life. And I hope that Then I Met You can serve as a turning point in anyone’s skincare routine that really wants to look for quality skincare products. But also, I’m just really passionate about infusing a deeper meaning and asking people to kind of take the time to go deeper with their connections. And I think that, in this age, with social media and superficiality and just being inundated with so many different things in your life, you need a reminder to go deeper. And so that’s the other part, an element of Then I Met You that I’m infusing into the brand every day.

Charlotte: [00:29:04] I think people are really receptive to it, and I’m so excited about that. We’ve had two in-real-life events in LA and New York and they were packed. They—we actually had over 400 RSVPs for the New York one that we just hosted last week with Michelle Lee—she’s the editor-in-chief of Allure. And it was a success because we just didn’t talk about the skincare products that we launched, and the cleansing balm and the quality that went into that. But we talked about how to go deeper. And we talked about really intimate topics that got people to think and reevaluate how they’ve been living their life, and how they can create stronger connections and bonds. And the way we did that was by asking very intimate questions to Michelle Lee, who has a very storied career in media. We actually touched upon topics that most people don’t talk about in their panels. So this really just sets a tone, and helps them understand that Then I Met You exists not purely for good skincare, but something more meaningful and deeper than that.

Dave: [00:30:03] We kind of knew right when we started that the eventuality was for us to make our own products. The fact was, though, that we knew nothing about product development, and we didn’t feel like we knew enough about skincare as it was. And so, kind of the ugly side of beauty is that you can just white-label a product, put your brand around it and just put on the shelves of Sephora. It happens every single day, actually. Our prediction is that’s where the pendulum is gonna swing is that, because the consumers are getting savvier, because they’re turning that bottle around, because they’re not just going to buy what you’re telling them to buy, they actually want to really know the stories behind it. They want more information that…  The brands that actually are making meaningful products—and [it] doesn’t have to be this meaningful in terms of values. It’s even just pure formulation—making sure that it’s right. Those are the brands that are gonna stick around. Because, if you think about it, everyone’s making skincare. Everyone’s making skincare.

Charlotte: [00:31:00] Now they are.

Dave: [00:31:00] Now they are. Now they, everyone’s—

Charlotte: [00:31:02] It’s no longer celebrity perfumes.

Dave: [00:31:03] You know, it’s just such a hot topic right now. You know, there [are] some amazing exits in the beauty space. And so, everyone’s getting [excited] about it cause there’s more investment in the space, and people are trying to find ways to make incremental revenue, maybe even, so they’re all creating beauty products. The fact is is that not everyone knows how to make beauty products. And so, for us, you know, we can only be who we authentically are. And you know, even after getting the investment three years ago, some of the investors are like, “Well, now you’re going to make your private label now, with this money, right?”

Richie: [00:31:30] Right. For Soko.

Dave: [00:31:31] Yeah. And we’re like, “No, that’s not what was in the deck. You know, we’re going to use the money [for] what I said we were getting some money for.” But we said, “Trust us, that’s going to be down the line.” And if we do these things well, and we learn along the way, then we’re going to be really ready to go. And we hope, and we predict that consumers will really notice. You know?

Dave: [00:31:49] And so—Charlotte talked about it—that was the plan, and her being, becoming a board certified esthetician, us not only knowing the products but going to the manufacturers, going to the R&D centers, and understanding the science behind the formulas, right? And for us not to just white-label products like what everyone else does, but for us to really get in there and invest into the formulas and making sure that they’re right for our consumers.

Dave: [00:32:13] You know, I think a lot of people today are still building products for retailers. People are building skincare products for retailers like Sephora and Ulta and so forth, right? We decided we wanted to build our products for our consumers. We know them, we feel like we know who they are, especially after building a relationship with them. And so, Then I Met You in itself is a brand value. We want to continue to make deeper, meaningful connections with them. And so that was just key for us. And whether that’s the type of model that other people can be excited about, that’s neither here [nor] there for us. We can only be who we are.

Dave: [00:32:50] And major kudos to Charlotte because it came from her brain, it’s basically almost like a living product of her journey, because she was ready for a turning point in her own life, being in her—now, close to mid-30s, she’s not quite there yet. But you know, I think it speaks to a lot of other people, especially women in their mid-30s where they’re tired of the grind. They’re tired of, just this empty stuff happening in their life. Even though they may be getting paid well or they’re traveling to certain places, people are looking for a turning point of their life and having more meaning, and Charlotte, you know, was ready for that in her own life. And it’s been super amazing to see the response from the community thus far.

Charlotte: [00:33:31] Yeah, I wasn’t kidding when I said that year six broke me.

Richie: [00:33:35] Yeah.

Charlotte: [00:33:35] It was just a [big] turning point. It really was. I said, “If we’re going to do this completely new brand, and invest all of our energies into building this new baby, I want it to be deeper and more meaningful.” You know? And, and I, I’m passionate about spreading this idea of, you need to take time to get to know people. You need to put down your phone, take a breath, connect with people. Relationships are all that matter in this world. So go make them instead of hoping that it just happens to create out of thin air.

Richie: [00:34:04] Yeah.

Dave: [00:34:04] So that’s kind of like the meaning behind it, and throughout the process and infusing that message behind the brand, hopefully it serves as some sort of reminder.

Richie: [00:34:12] So you’d been seeing—call them the most kind of forward-thinking, cutting-edge products in the market through Soko, Klog, all these things. There’s always a little bit of hubris when you make something new that all of the other things out there don’t solve what I want to. Was it easy for you to overcome that, I guess because you had seen everything, or was there also fear, hesitation that there’s already so much good stuff that one of your other brands is, is literally built on—or two of them almost—are already built on that ‘who are we to think that another entrant makes sense at this point’?

Charlotte: [00:34:45] Yeah, there was some pressure there for sure. And I think that’s where I was tearing my hair out. But no, I think I did feel that. A lot of expectation and pressure, and I wanted to live up to those expectations and not disappoint. But I do have a very distinct point of view about skincare. It’s almost like marrying my experience with Korean products and what I know as a Korean American, what I want. I was able to create something unique enough and, and honestly the products have been well received, and two of the products are up for awards right now.

Richie: [00:35:17] Very cool.

Charlotte: [00:35:17] They’ve told us that they are going to be awarded this year, so I’m glad that I’ve been able to deliver on that, and it seems like people are very excited. So I’m very thankful for that.

Richie: [00:35:26] Talk a bit about the product, because you started with two, with the bundle, so to speak. I know a little bit that the double cleansing has been very much part of your repertoire.

Charlotte: [00:35:36] You know a lot about skincare!

Dave: [00:35:36] I know! Alright.

Charlotte: [00:35:36] I realize this!

Dave: [00:35:38] I like it.

Charlotte: [00:35:38] Yeah, that’s something that actually started me on my skincare journey in Korea. It’s the first thing I learned, and the first thing I saw results from, ’cause I was not washing my face properly. So I really firmly believe in the double cleanse, because it not only helps with clearing your skin of acne, but also helps with anti-aging. So—

Richie: [00:35:54] [Can you] say what it is, really quick?

Richie: [00:35:55] The double cleanse is a Korean technique where you use [an] oil-based cleanser first, and then a water-based cleanser. And using those two cleansers really helps clear your skin of any impurities and it’ll get you started on the right step. Basically, you have a very clean slate, and it can prep you for the rest of your skincare routine. And our launch started with the cleansing duo, which features those two products—you could buy them individually, but we are big advocates of the double cleanse. And everyone asked, “Why are you launching your skincare line?” Again, another unique point of difference for our brand is that we are starting with cleansers, and two of them. Like, “Why didn’t you start with a moisturizer and a serum?” Those are, you know, really high price points and you can start your brand that way. But I wanted to start with the double cleanse because that’s uniquely and authentically me and how I started my journey. So it’s kind of a nod to that.

Richie: [00:36:43] Right. It’s the foundation.

Charlotte: [00:36:44] It’s the foundation, yeah. We didn’t really listen to those comments and just forged ahead.

Richie: [00:36:49] Sounds like it’s been working. So you started this whole thing with—call it minimal expectations, following a passion, all that—at this point now you’re on your third pillar of the business, you probably have expectations behind it. And kind of, what were those, and how did, I guess, you score those? Cause there’s just so much money out there. There are brands that are trying to grow so quickly and all these things with—what would success mean for this new thing, for you?

Dave: [00:37:11] I think there’s one side, which is kind of the boring side, but it’s important, you know. There is an obligation to make sure that, you know, we continue to grow and we continue to grow the value of the company for our shareholders, and, and that’s important. But what’s more exciting for us is actually with Then I Met You. I’ll share some kind of, inside information. We didn’t have a revenue goal. I purposely told the team, we’re not focused on revenue. Now everything is working out nicely for us, actually. But the point of me saying that was because I need for people to feel this brand. This is what it is. Like, we got a call from retailers the day we launched. There’s not a lot of people that would turn down that call, and say like, “Why wouldn’t we want to just open up more distribution doors?” And that means X amount of growth and sales, right? Expected sales. But we, without hesitation, just kindly said, no thank you.

Dave: [00:38:04] And it’s because achieving success, to us, was basically for us to achieve things like this, which we’re starting to really get. Our people are saying, they are tagging us on Instagram, they’re writing us emails, they’re DMing Charlotte on her own channel, saying, “I needed to hear this.” And not all of them talk about the product itself. People are recognizing the formulations, for sure. But I think what success for us is, we’re much more about what Then I Met You stands for and the values that we have. We just happen to make skincare right now. Right? And so the vision for this brand is so much bigger, and so, success for us, for now, is getting a lot more of that and getting people to start sharing that with their own communities, with people they have meaningful connections with. And that’s what’s more meaningful for us.

Dave: [00:38:50] And it reminds me a lot about, again, going back to day one, and why did we start Soko Glam, to start with? Like, what really got us through some of those really tough times that every entrepreneur faces is really, I can think back to these really amazing testimonies that we got through our emails. There was a story about a girl that, yeah, I still remember to this day. She wrote us a really long email after a month of purchasing products from us. And her entire adult life, right, she faced really, really, really bad skin problems. Like mountainous kind of hormonal acne all over her face. And what that led to was bullying, and then her not wanting to leave her home, her not wanting to look people in the eye, her not—basically just staying home. But she tried everything. She tried all of the commercials that sell acne products that you know, will, will help you. Anything over the counter, all the expensive stuff. And she’s just like caught us on an article and said, “You know, I’ll just give this K-beauty thing a shot.” And after about 30 days of trying she said, “My face cleared up. I am now able to go outside and look people in the eye.”

Dave: [00:39:53] And I was just, it brought us to tears. ’Cause this is why we’re doing this. This is why we’re doing this. To help all people believe they’re only good skin days ahead. Skincare, beauty is a journey, it’s not a destination and we want to be there for these people, and Then I Met You is kind of like the next evolution of that.

Richie: [00:40:09] We’ve focused and written a lot about, just all these celebrity brands getting built, and the opportunity, but also challenges, that come with predicating something on a single person. Now I’m guessing your life is not nearly as interesting, for better or worse, as celebrities with DUIs and drunk rampages and all these things, but what has it been like to see that grow from, again, a literal passion project to somewhat three different things predicated around your like, your existence? And then also, do you want that to change, does it have to change as you get bigger and more of these pillars come up, or do they get bigger themselves? Of it growing beyond you as well?

Dave: [00:40:47] There’s two sides to this coin—I think there’s two sides to a lot of coins—but on [the] one hand, it actually makes it a really great way to connect all of our brands. Because people, when they think about Soko Glam, they may think about Charlotte; thinking about Charlotte, they may think about Soko Glam. And now, you know, you can say that about Then I Met You, you can say that about The Klog. And so it’s a really great connector because you can see that it wasn’t necessarily a business decision, because it kind of was, but it really kind of wasn’t. Like, Charlotte is that piece of that. I couldn’t have made that move and done it authentically. I think that any savvy business person would say, “We gotta create content ’cause content’s the new thing. We gotta do this because this is the new thing, private labels and all that.” That playbook is out there, but I think that what makes us different is Charlotte. So there’s that component.

Dave: [00:41:37] I think the other side of that same coin is that it’s very difficult. It puts a lot of pressure on one person. You gotta really put yourself out there. And Charlotte has tons of Instagram followers, and they all love her and everything, and you know what? It wasn’t a part of any strategy. They just really wanted to see more of her. Like, it wasn’t a part of the strategy for her to become a published author. That was definitely not in the business plan, you know? But what Charlotte is passionate about is connecting with her community, and so that’s why we did it.

Dave: [00:42:08] But I think what comes with it—and I know a lot of influencers are facing this challenge today—is that it takes a lot out of you, and then it kind of blurs the line between your life and your kind of work life. Sometimes, you know, communities can be tough, you know? And facing that, and understanding how to digest that, and make sure that it’s not too negative.

Charlotte: [00:42:30] Reddit is scary.

Dave: [00:42:30] Yeah. I mean, but thankfully, I mean, the community, our community has just been super supportive. I’m not saying they’re always supportive. A lot of times they’re telling us what we’re doing wrong, and that’s great, we want to hear that too. And in a way, we see that as support, but I know that it’s still tough. It’s something that we still tackle today to make sure that we’re thinking about it in the right way.

Richie: [00:42:48] Right. Especially as you get bigger too, which, I assume it gets harder.

Charlotte: [00:42:51] Yeah. I think, right now, what the great thing is that, although I am slightly involved in every little thing, they function and run smoothly without me too. For example, if you go on The Klog, that’s led by a team and I’m here to give more insight and direction but, you know, the execution, they’re just doing an amazing job as it is. And so I’m luckily able to use my platform to share those articles that I think are really meaningful, and then people will really get a lot out of. And then for marketing there’s a whole team around curation now. And then I’m here to share some insights, but they are finding the brands too, and then they create great results. So it’s been an awesome experience just to be able to grow and see all these different sides of the business and take part in all of the pieces.

Richie: [00:43:35] This is for each of you to answer: What has been the cheapest and most expensive lesson you’ve learned building the companies?

Dave: [00:43:41] So, the cheapest lesson was really about social and PR. We attribute a lot of our success to that. And that worked so hard for us. But Charlotte was our PR person—and in a lot of ways, she’s still our PR person today—but in the beginning, my gosh, that was a home run, a home run. We didn’t have to spend any money on it. We didn’t run ads for years, actually. We were just able to use PR to gain traffic direct to our site, but also help us with our SEO. You can do any relevant keyword in our space and we’re on the first page, usually one-two-three. That was because we had a PR strategy, and that strategy was really Charlotte just doing what she thought was right. I think it also speaks to like, you know, authenticity, which everyone talks about.

Dave: [00:44:28] The most expensive was something I talked about earlier, which is, I think it was about culture. Just doing a gut check on yourself and looking at yourself in the mirror, and just saying, are you doing the right things for the company, you know? And putting that ownership on yourself to make sure that you’re bringing it every single day, and building. We’re unrecognizable to ourselves. So in some ways, when you invest so much into growth, those things are gonna happen, things are gonna break. And a lot of times culture is one of the big things to break. And so, I think that was an extremely expensive lesson to learn. But at the same time, because me, plus other people, were willing to kind of grab the bull by its horns and just tackle it—which is not easy to do—it was expensive. But I’m like, “Wow, we invested in it, and we are here now.” And I’m just so glad that we made it through the real tough points—you know, we still got more ahead of us—but that’s kind of like a, sorry, it’s kind of like a half-expensive—

Richie: [00:45:22] You can chop it up, it’s all good.

Dave: [00:45:23] But yeah. But it was like, I’m just so proud, cause it was kind of more of a recent development. I just feel really good about that.

Charlotte: [00:45:28] My cheapest lesson, I think, is the fact that I was approached by a book editor and had—they had told me they were interested in me writing a book, and I actually declined, and said, “I don’t have time for this. And I’m not a writer and I don’t know how to go about doing this, and is this real?” And I dove deep into it, and I found out that it was a legit offer, and people were interested in what I had to say and write, and they wanted me to put into a book. And I’m so glad I actually got the courage to do it and ended up publishing, because it ended up really cementing Soko Glam, in many ways, internationally, and it also gave me a lot of opportunities just because it legitimized my background as an esthetician. And it also helped me really touch people in ways that The Klog and even Soko Glam can’t do.

Charlotte: [00:46:14] So that really, really helped me. And I’m actually writing my second book—

Richie: [00:46:17] Very cool.

Charlotte: [00:46:17]—which is regarding the concept of “jeong.” And the most—

Richie: [00:46:20] Which is tied into Then I Met You, too.

Charlotte: [00:46:22] Yes, it’s tied into the whole idea of going deeper, and taking time to forge these deep connections with other people. And then the second question, the expensive lesson I learned, I think the past six, seven years of just going a hundred miles per hour. I think, not being able to spend enough time with my family who’s based in California. All my nephews and nieces are grown up now, and they don’t care about me when I come and visit. So I definitely miss that portion of their life, when they’re so cute and small, and now they’re getting big. And so I always do think about how my parents are getting older, and how I’ve kind of missed on that chunk pursuing this passion. And it’s just one of those tough things that I can’t really take back or turn back the hands of time, but hopefully I will be able to go deeper with them, and prioritize and, and actually spend vacation time completely focused on them, instead of like, hanging out by my phone the whole time.

Richie: [00:47:17] So, I guess coming to the last, kind of set of questions here. How do you both think about where this goes? And how big do you want it to get? You have investors who invested money into this. How long do you think you’d want to do this for, and what does that mean for kind of, the ownership kind of, stakeholder-piece of the company and, and the time at which that all happens on?

Dave: [00:47:37] Mhmm. Well, it’s kind of hard to talk about time, I would say, but we honestly feel like we’re just getting started. Sometimes that’s kind of daunting to kind of look—not only my co-founder, my wife—in the eye and say, “We only got started.” And I know—

Richie: [00:47:50] What, seven years later?

Dave: [00:47:51] Seven years later, and tears and stuff later. But it’s funny because as you gain success, you realize how much further you are to the end. And I think that’s all about kind of learning, but also just, you create a bigger opportunity for yourself. And so I don’t have a timeline. I do think that the bigger vision is that we reach more people, and that we’re able to create a really meaningful ecosystem that people really resonate with. And a part of that is for us to continue to change and listen to our customers. There’s things that we’ll say that we’ll do one day, or say that we won’t do one day and then we’ll do it, you know, the next day.

Dave: [00:48:28] Retail is one example. We did a one-year, mini-shop, shop-and-shop with Bloomingdale’s Soho. And before that we said that, you know, we wouldn’t ever get into retail, but we did that cause our customers said that they wanted it and it was a huge success for us, you know? And so that just makes it so cool, where Charlotte and I feel like, how did we get so lucky that we’re able to do something every single day, even though it’s hard, but it’s like something that feels like something we can do for the rest of our life? And it allows us to be creative. Again like, also empowering people to not feel like they are limited and there’s nothing we can’t do. And there’s a lot of cool things we haven’t planned, and Charlotte is also, I think she has a lot of personal ambitions as well. Like she talked about her second book, which also is related to the company but she’s also into film. She’s into a lot of things. And I think that if you build the ecosystem the right way and people really resonate with it, we can do more.

Richie: [00:49:22] What’s been the biggest surprise of building and launching the brand? I guess, maybe through the lens of the brand itself, but also what it’s then done for the larger ecosystem, too.

Dave: [00:49:31] It was a very—in one [way], we’re rarely happy with, again, the response and everything. But for me to talk about challenges is important, because I know your readers are also entrepreneurs as well, and people from the industry, and I don’t think that there’s enough talk about the challenges, actually. The one challenge that I’ll share with Then I Met You is that it is really hard to create a brand from the ground up.

Richie: [00:49:57] Especially today, right?

Dave: [00:49:58] Today.

Richie: [00:49:58] There are so many mutations of every single thing.

Charlotte: [00:50:01] It’s a very crowded space.

Dave: [00:50:02] And with Soko Glam and The Klog, I mean, it was coming at a time where we had a lot of growth hacks, right? Whether it’s social media, Instagram or whether it’s, you know, being a first mover. I mean we had a lot of things going there. We, you know, with Then I Met You, there’s not really a lot of that now.

Richie: [00:50:19] The, the white space.

Dave: [00:50:20] The white space. Yeah, exactly. And Charlotte talked about what makes our brand more distinct but, yeah, it’s a totally different beast. And you know, something that we talk a lot about now is making sure we keep our eye on the prize, our eye on the vision where, you know, we don’t kind of take the blue light approach where we can easily take a retailer route and, you know, see that growth and see that awareness. But you know, there’s like, kind of a more meaningful path that we’re trying to go down. And there’s always going to be this uphill kind of, you know, the wind-in-your-face type of feeling, which is one of our biggest challenges right now.

Richie: [00:50:55] Do you find that the customers coming to Then I Met You, do you know how many of them know about the other stuff you do? Or are many of them totally new, also?

Dave: [00:51:03] Yeah, a lot of them, a lot of them know Charlotte, they’re getting to know the brand through Charlotte, through Soko Glam. So there’s a lot of that, for sure.

Charlotte: [00:51:08] But it feels like déjà vu, because I was explaining it’s not just about skincare and it’s about this concept of jeong and going deeper. Again, jeong is a foreign word. No one in the U.S. has ever heard of it. So it kind of reminds me of how no one knew what K-beauty was when we first started Soko Glam. So it’s like, okay, we’re going down this road again, trying to educate people about a completely foreign concept, and it’s also very deep, and you have to actually talk to them over coffee about it to explain fully what it means. So that’s part of the challenge.

Richie: [00:51:38] Right.

Charlotte: [00:51:38] And it’s tough. But, honestly, we’ve done this before. Like again, it’s déjà vu, so we’re kind of ready to go for it.

Richie: [00:51:44] Yeah, it’s interesting because when we talked before about why Korea was ahead from a beauty and skincare perspective, it was because there was some of this ingrained in the culture. And what you described was a place where there was minimal brand affinity, they were choosing between many things. It’s interesting now, as you said, that that’s the problem, or the opportunity here, that there is not brand loyalty as much. There is not product affinity. And so you’re now bringing the cultural piece over to try and solve that problem, which, I guess, was created before, and now it’s there. It’s very cyclical, I guess, which is really interesting.

Richie: [00:52:16] And then, I guess, my last real question is where are the names of each of the three pillars from?

Charlotte: [00:52:22] Oh. Well, Soko Glam, South Korean Glam, but we truncated the South Korea and put it into the word “Soko,” so it’s “Soko Glam.”

Dave: [00:52:31] But you also always wanted to live in New York.

Charlotte: [00:52:35] Yes. And so I got inspiration from Soho. And then The Klog is actually, it used to be “K-beauty Blog,” and we put those together. But we also liked putting it together, cause “clog” was kind of like “clogged pores,” and so it’s like, a little fun twist to that. And the name Then I Met You is a phrase to describe a turning point.

Richie: [00:52:54] Yeah, it’s interesting—the name and a phrase. Generally it goes against the idea that you want the one-word thing. But you can say it fast, which is interesting. It’s not like, there are other brands—which I won’t name on here—that are like clunky to say—

Dave: [00:53:06] Yeah.

Richie: [00:53:06]—when they are three words, but this is like a clip.

Dave: [00:53:09] Yeah.

Richie: [00:53:09] In a sense.

Dave: [00:53:09] Yeah.

Charlotte: [00:53:10] And hopefully it, it makes people feel something when they see that name. And I think everyone will have their own interpretation of it, which is fine because it’s very personal.

Richie: [00:53:20] Yeah. Awesome. Thank you both for talking.

Dave: [00:53:21] Yeah.

Charlotte: [00:53:21] Thank you so much for having us.

Dave: [00:53:22] Thank you so much.

Richie: [00:53:26] Thanks for listening to the Loose Threads podcast. You can read full transcripts of the podcast and join the newsletter at LooseThreads.com. Feel free to leave a review on iTunes, we always appreciate it. And thanks to George Drake, Jr. for editing this episode. We have a great roster of upcoming guests and we hope that you tune in next week.